stargate : Message: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/201)

 12:23:50

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hello,

This is my first posting to this list so here goes:

I suffer from tinnitus, so to see if there is any problem with my ears
my consultant booked me in for an MRI scan. When I got near to the
appointment (last Tues afternoon), I thought 'Here's an experiment just
asking for it!'. So I decided that I'd try rv'ing when the scan was
actually taking place (I'm always on the lookout for experiments).

As well as participating in target viewing on a number of web-sites, I'm
in email contact with a guy in Israel, and we send each other targets
(.jpg file nos.) followed up by session summaries and then the actual
.jpg file and comments; about 3 times a week. So, when the scanner was
up and running (very noisy too), I concentrated on the latest target
number and tried to rv it.

BTW I don't follow any particular protocol, I just close my eyes, try to
relax, think about the code no., and try to keep my conscious mind from
'interfering'. I then wait for impressions, which may come by way of
visuals (liberally sprinkled with AOLs of course :-/), tactiles,
emotions/feelings etc...as you all know. I know I have a lot to learn,
and could do with structuring my sessions somewhat......but we have had
some success, enough to convince me that rv really happens.

Well, I was fed to the 'doughnut', and told to keep perfectly still and
try to relax. (Obviously total relaxation is a bit of a 'no-no' in such
a situation; especially when there's always the thought that the scan
could reveal something drastically wrong....)

I must admit it felt very different, although that could have been
because I was expecting it to. It felt as if my mind was much more
'open', hard to describe really. No, I didn't get a direct hit :-(, and
perhaps not even qualified for a 'near-miss' on the UT site, but I got a
great deal of basic information which appeared in the .jpg picture. The
sheer *amount* of information coming in impressed me......my problem was
interpreting it. The only other time I've had such an over-abundance of
data was when I tried a 'beaconing' target on the UT site.

Thought I would share this, because what I really want to know is
whether anyone has done any research, or read anything anywhere about
the affect that magnetic fields may have on performance re rv... or psi
in general.

BTW my friend said that he was impressed, (which made me feel good :-)
), and he wants to know how I did it; as all I said was that I tried an
experiment. I've now got to tell him that it's unrepeatable...hopefully.

Thanks for reading this.
--
Regards,
Glyn


stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  Sony psi research closed down 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/202)

 12:24:06

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Everyone,

I thought you might find this interesting. Posted to PJ's Psi
List, which after much email pressure, is still alive! I believe
the Viewer List has closed down, however.

--

South China Morning Post
Internet Edition
Tuesday July 7, 1998
Japan
Sony sees sense to discontinue ESP research

BENJAMIN FULFORD in Tokyo

Japan's Sony Corporation says it has proved extra-sensory
perception exists - but has closed down its ESP research facility
because there did not seem to be any way to turn the knowledge
into marketable products.

Sony had a team of five researchers, who spent seven years
inviting people who claimed to have psychic powers into their
laboratories for a series of scientific tests to see if they
really did have these powers, company spokesman Masanobu
Sakaguchi said.

"We found out experimentally that yes, ESP exists, but that any
practical application of this knowledge is not likely in the
foreseeable future," he said.

Mr Sakaguchi said a typical experiment involved having a qi gong
practitioner put qi, or spiritual energy, into a glass of water
and then having another practitioner detect which glass contained
the qi.

"They were right 70 per cent of the time, and if it was random
guessing they would have been right only 50 per cent of the
time," he said. The experiments were repeated so often that any
chances of a statistical fluke were ruled out, he said.
Other experiments produced similar results for things like
discerning hidden objects and detecting colours without looking,
he said.

"We were unable to detect qi with any machine; it seems only
people can detect it," he said. Possibilities like packing qi
gong energy in batteries were thus too remote to justify more
research, he said.

Masaru Ibuga, one of Sony's founders, set up the ESP research
centre in 1991 after he became interested in qi gong and other
unexplained aspects of Chinese medicine. His death this year may
be the real reason the research was discontinued.

--end--



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/203)

 12:24:20

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

...my consultant booked me in for an MRI scan. When I got near to the
>appointment (last Tues afternoon), I thought 'Here's an experiment just
>asking for it!'. So I decided that I'd try rv'ing when the scan was
>actually taking place (I'm always on the lookout for experiments)...

Hi Glynn,

Quite creative and resourceful of you to think of incorporating rv'ing during
an MRI scan. I don't really know much about the studies regarding the effect
of magnetic fields on psi (I'm sure someone else on the list will address
this),
but I wonder whether having to concentrate intently on something else than
the
MRI and implications, where you forced yourself to block out distractions
helped
you to access the target.

Regards,

Roger


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Sony psi research closed down 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/204)

 12:24:35

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hi Steve,

It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no practicale
applications were possible. Is this another cover up denouncing psi so
that the practical applications go underground.

Surely, as the many RV groups have found, psi even at a low level can
aid in finding Oil, people, etc. A very bizzare conclusion!

Puzzeled in Seattle,

Bill Pendergrass


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/205)

 12:24:45

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hello Glyn,

I don't know whether I should mention this but a very good friend of
mine, who has since left the country claimed to have been part of a
government black project to enhance psi with alternating EMF fields.
She claims her nervous system was severely damaged when the black ops
closed it down and left her abandoned. Was this true? I don't really
know. I kind of doubt it, but her symptoms were those of someone
suffering from damage from extremely high EMF fields. She said it did
work BTW. I know nothing more about her claimed experiment. Any black op
people out there, stay away or I'll oscillate your fields!

Dr Barry Taff who has a tape on both Art Bell and Jeff Renses
(sightings on the radio show realaudio archives) claims that he also
participated in a similar effort which was abandoned because of
secondary damage. However, he mentioned no serious injuries. Still it
makes one really wonder. Barry also said it worked but was too
dangerous. I think Dr TAff is pretty reliable, although he may be
leaving things out. I don't thing he made things up for the show.

There is also evidence I've seen on Discovery Channel that stimulating
the temporal lobes of the brain with an oscilating field of certain
frequencies causes psi like effects. OOBE's, voices etc. although these
investigators did not try to determine if these manifestations were
truly psychic or simply hallucinations in fact claimed the opposite
without any experiments.

Sincerely,

Bill



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/206)

 12:25:02

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Aries Productions has just completed a new 25 card Color-sensing Deck which
>is available from Aries, Inc. Dept. L, POB 29396, St. Louis, Mo. 63126 USA at
>$6.50 plus $1.75 postage US, $3 foreign. for these very interesting
>experiments.

Hi Bevy,

Thanks for this. Do you happen a have phone number for them handy? More
info on what the deck is like would be nice too (are they just coloured cards?
I'd think for a psi experiment, the fewer distractions on the card, the better,
unless they are somehow supportive to a good psi result?)

The name of the game here, so to speak, is to create what is supposed to be
the most favourable conditions for psi, and then perform a simple test to
measure chance vs. actual scores. Aside from 'proving psi' for skeptics,
it would hopefully have the added bonus of allowing us to flesh out the
weaknesses and strengths of psi through ongoing online experiments, in a way
we can all be involved with.

So in that way, these kinds of experiments, apart from hopefully being
just "fun" and also easy to try, should be useful in, for skeptics, showing us
whether psi can really be demonstrated to exist this way, and for the
supporters or to-be-converted skeptics, it can allow us to probe the
boundaries of psi through ongoing online experiments.

Either way, whichever side of the fence people are on, I'd hope these kind
of experiments would provide some useful information.

>Working with children is rewarding as they tend to DO what you tell them they
>can do. It is best to explain that it is merely a game, however, for obvious
>reaons.
>
>Many who are working on developing the PSI abilities from telepathy and
>psychic touch to remote viewing can work with a child quite easily. Keeping
>it on a 'game' footing helps to allow them to regard the 'games' as normal.
>Having done this many years ago, I can verify that it works very well done in
>this way.

That makes sense. I suppose children do not consider it yet to be an
"unnatural" or
impossible task at that age, plus they're not as concerned about statistics at
that age as your average adult playing a similar game ;-) I'm sure this must
help in
developing psi skills. They just see it as a game, like you say, and they're
too young
to realise that something is going on that most adults in today's world would
probably
regard as "strange" or "spooky" if they were a witness or participant in it.
Children
on the other hand, probably don't see the 'big deal' over it. Bringing children
up
to regard this as a natural talent/ability can only be a Good Thing(tm) IMO.

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/207)

 12:25:13

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>I think some experiment involving red/black might work on the Stargate List,
>but I think the one you have had in mind is probably a bit advanced for most.
>Why not just start with 5 of them, and go from there?

Hi Bevy,

The idea of a red/black card test is still "in the works", so it's probably a
good
idea to regard all my ideas as "preliminary ideas."

There are many questions I need answering before I can even begin this
type of experiment, though, such as how many cards to do at a time,
how often they should be changed, and any special procedure I have
to do (memorise the order? Etc.)

Since I've never done an online experiment like this before, I'd like to hear
from anyone who has done this type of experiment in the past, especially
if they've done a "remote" experiment like this before.

How many cards per day or per week do you think would be a "not too
high, not too low" number? It would be nice to collect as many stats
as possible, but without giving people too much work to do, or -
on the flipside - making it easy, such as one card per week, but then
making realistic stat work impossible for at least six months or so.

Apart from giving people a chance to brush up on their skills and
to perhaps test different approaches, it's also a valuable chance
to gather some statistics (and to test claims, such as that everyone
has natural psi abilities, that some are better then others, etc.) An
online experiment where everyone is given a unique number (and
they can choose to tell people who they are only if they want to),
allows us to see the differences between individuals, without anyone
knowing who those individuals were (i.e. people would still be
'anonymous' in the sense they're only recognised by a number,
unless they *want* to be identified.)

Comments, suggestions, tips, ideas etc. are welcome on this idea!

Best always,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/208)

 12:25:31

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<<
Comments, suggestions, tips, ideas etc. are welcome on this idea!

Best always,
Steve.
>>
Not gonna beat this horse .... rigamortize has already set in...but here are
some "facts" you need to file away...
1. The good Psychic / Remote Viewer may start off with a good "score" but very
quickly they will tire of this parlor trick and the scores will begin to look
very wierd....

2. Lets say that a viewer consistently hits 50/50..what does that
mean....hmmmm....any comments.....Does it mean anything?..Well actually it
does..it usually means the viewer/Psychic is playing with the mind of the
tester...

3. Let;s say that a viewer gets a consistent 75% correct hits...then all of
sudden they begin to get only 25% correct hits...What does that mean..?..Have
they burned out?...Have they lost it?...hmmmmm???...Actually getting 75%
correct hits is the same as getting 25% correct hits...ask any
mathematician...

4. How do you plan on eliminating tester bias...I like red better than
black...will my body temp, eyes, voice, brathing etc.etc change when I see a
red card and will I "transmit" these to the Viewer/Psychic...

5. .......and besides card tricks are just that...card tricks...they prove
nothing...if you want to test things on the net...do like Paul does...come up
with some nifty targets and let people view them...then check the number of
"rookie successes" with the number of "pros successes"...check the accuracy of
hits...check similarity of responses...do people use the same words to
describe same items...do they use these words every time this type of object
is observed....see there are lots of ways to learn things about RV without
resorting parlor games...
Gene...


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/209)

 12:25:42

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Glyn:

Dr. Andrija Puharich did a great deal of work on PSI fields operating while in
or out of magnetic fields. He used a Farraday (sp) cage for some of the
experimental trials and found that magnetic fields did not seem to be a factor
either for or against the operation and efficiency of PSI. (Dr. P. also found
correlation between some phases of the lunar orb to create a small effect) (no
comment)

I think the scientific thinking on PSI and what does or does not affect is has
definitely shifted away from any operation of EMF fields, of any sort.

However, as I have always felt that the questions we cannot answer are to be
contained in the field of physics and specifically quantum physics, it is
interesting that even such early research tended to elminate thinking along
EMF lines.
Bevy J


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/210)

 12:25:51

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Steve:

The Aries Color-Sensing Deck is an original design of a brilliantly-colored
triangular shape on a series of 25 white cards, done in red, yellow, green,
blue and black. There is no 'color' on the back of the cards, which was one
of the 'noise' factors with Rhine's Zener deck, which had white squiggles and
a sort of starburst on blue on the reverse side (which led to a lot of people
'guessing' the wavy lines were on the opposite.)
The other problem with it is that students in PSI often see only a portion of
the design, and not the whole design. Since 2 of the zener cards were a
square and a t-cross, both of which are composed of 4 right angles, students
tended to confuse them continuously.
Imho, this factor alone could conceivably do great damage to Rhine's
mathematical statistics on his tests, as students saying 'cross' when the
target was a square, may have been entirely correct but had to choose one of
two 'possibles'.
Given this problem, his percentages of 'right' choices may have been very
much higher than they were.

It is well known that persons studying telepathy and remote viewing do run
into the 'not a clear picture' or 'not a whole scene' problem, sometimes
for as long as a period of years until they get clear 'eyes' and can scan
whole detailed targets. It took me a lot of time until that 'dark veil'
problem, misting out some of
the target, cleared up, and I am aware of students who may have found it a
problem for even longer periods. Concentrated deliberate visualization and
mnemonic exercises do help to clear it, too, but found that direction of
attack only in the late 1960's.
Hope this helps out.
Bevy J


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Signal direction 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/211)

 12:26:07

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Bill, I recall that he mentioned he had gotten a lot of his information from
a person who had spent twenty
years of research on hallucinations. I believe his name was Claude de
Contrecoeur. Try http://dog.net.uk/claude/ The paper on controlled
dreaming is very interesting.....Ken



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/212)

 12:26:18

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------


This is REALLY cool information...keep 'em coming.
Thanks :-)
electrix


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/213)

 12:26:35

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Gene,

Welcome back to the list. Some thoughts on your reply to my
red/black post..

>Not gonna beat this horse .... rigamortize has already set in...but here are
>some "facts" you need to file away...
>
>1. The good Psychic / Remote Viewer may start off with a good "score" but very
>quickly they will tire of this parlor trick and the scores will begin to look
>very wierd....

If people tire of this "parlor trick", they should be all means quit while
they're ahead.
No one's forcing them to take these experiments, least of all me. It's all a
matter
of choice of participation. They can start whenever they like, leave whenever
they like.

Incidentally, did the viewers in the mil unit "start well, then it looked weird"
in the
laboratory? If not, I do not see why they'd be a difference in similar people's
performance in an open setting, where if anything, they should be more relaxed
and cosy, because they are doing it from the comfort of their own home? What
causes you to suspect that a different setting will lead to dramaticly different
experiments with dramatically different conclusions, that cause laboratories'
findings to be unrepeatable?

Also, why would any conditions be different outside the lab than in them?

Because if we follow the basic rules of science in performing these experiments,
(first be open and accountable) and we replicate the experiment in every
possible
conceivable way, then surely there would be very little difference between the
two
settings and experiments? And we should be able to replicate the findings, if
the
original findings were sound. That's the whole point here. That's why I'm
proposing
these experiments. Replicability. Trying to replicate findings, to confirm
them.

Apart from the viewers/psi-gifted individuals doing it from home and the amateur
researchers doing it from home (hopefully replicating the experiment as closely
as
humanly possible), what reason is there to believe that there is anything
different
apart from the fact it is being done openly and publicly? I cannot see a reason
why they'd be a significant impact on a good viewer's performance. If they
have the ability, they have the ability. If they'd demonstrated it before, it
should be demonstrable again in similar circumstances.

>2. Lets say that a viewer consistently hits 50/50..what does that
>mean....hmmmm....any comments.....Does it mean anything?..Well actually it
>does..it usually means the viewer/Psychic is playing with the mind of the
>tester...

There is no scientific basis for that assertion ("playing" with the mind of the
tester), that I'm aware of, (please do point out any studies that show this if
there are any). I prefer to stick to pure, cold scientific investigation,
which
includes the accountability, peer-review and repeatability I talk about above.
All forms of faith, except in scientific procedure, fly out of the window for me
when I talk about performing a scientific experiment.

Now of course, you may be right Gene! I'm not dismissing your suggestion. But
until I see scientific evidence that I can validate and repeat, I must treat it
as an opinion that I cannot prove. And I want to *validate and repeat* the
assertation that psi results are higher than chance, which I have heard soo
frequently. Lyn said he's been able to get 58.3% if I recall correctly on the
red/black experiment. I'm trying to see if I can repeat those findings.

For your information, behind this experiment, I am working on the following
premise:

- Results are equal or bordering on chance: Psi ability has not been
unambiguously demonstrated to exist in this particular experiment. This
cannot prove that psi does not exist, however.

- Results are higher than chance: (56%+ for example) If no errors can be
found, then psi ability most likely exists, probability increasing if there is
a large run in experiments and the score remains above 50%.

The two "conclusions" above will of course be declared invalid and the
experiment re-started if methodological flaws are later found.

>3. Let;s say that a viewer gets a consistent 75% correct hits...then all of
>sudden they begin to get only 25% correct hits...What does that mean..?..Have
>they burned out?...Have they lost it?...hmmmmm???...Actually getting 75%
>correct hits is the same as getting 25% correct hits...ask any
>mathematician...

That would assume the existence of "negative psi," getting consistently WORSE
than chance. I cannot logically reconcile how "negative psi" could exist,
but for the purposes of this post I will talka bout my feelings as if it does.
Personally,
I think if negative and positive psi both exist, and they have this effect of
cancelling
each other out, causing the average to be chance, 50%, then sticking with ways
of
calculating things by chance is, in the long run, just as effective. Thus, of
what
benefit is psi? It has little practical application if in the long run, if the
long-term
results generated are no better than if we'd relied on chance. Perhaps you
are right and this does show that both positive and negative psi exist and had
an influenec on a viewer's session, causing them to get lower-than-average
after higher-than-average runs. But a tthe end of the day, their average is
equal to chance. So there was *no benefit* in psi in such an experiment
even if it existed.

Also, lab findings seem to show that there are *higher-than-chance* results.
These findings should be replicable.

Please note I am speakign from only a moderate understanding of statistics.
I'm not genius at statistics. I am planning to just run the experiments
and allow people to draw their own conclusions.

When I say I want to repeat lab experiments, that's exactly what I mean.

Science is about: repeatability, peer-review, accountability.

>4. How do you plan on eliminating tester bias...I like red better than
>black...will my body temp, eyes, voice, brathing etc.etc change when I see a
>red card and will I "transmit" these to the Viewer/Psychic...

The experiments will be performed online. Therefore, there won't be
any transmission of body heat, eyes, voice, etc. However, this would
be an important issue if, indeed, the test was being conducted
in other "non-remote" circumstances.

>5. .......and besides card tricks are just that...card tricks...they prove
>nothing...

It seems to me you have already dismissed the value of this experiment before
there is so much as a single result. And why do you use the
word "trick"? "Trick" implies a gimmick. Why would it be any more a
gimmick if done publicly, then if it was done privately in a lab? It only
means the results, INCLUDING FULL DATA, are published openly,
instead of kept filed away for internal reference and review only.

I'm suggesting we perform a scientific experiment, based on repeating
previous experiments, to test for a useful and practical psi ability, and if
found, attempt to charter it's boundaries throuh follow-up experiments. My
definition of "useful and practical psi ability" is: results that average out at
above-chance levels. If they average out at chance levels, what benefit
does psi provide other than something we could of guessed? If psi makes us
do better than chance, then do worse than chance, with no way of knowing
without feedback which is the case, and with negative/positive psi averaging out
at "chance", while it may exist, it doesn't sound particularly valuable or
useful
above "guesswork." (Incidentally, I have never said chance results = no
psi exists.)

Also, why is it when science is done behind closed doors it is
called parapsychology, a "highly scientific field of investigation",
but when someone proposes that the same be done openly and
accountably, it is immediately condemned and dismissed by so
many as a "parlor trick"? Personally, from an open-science point of view, I
think the latter is more useful. The former is secretive and denies
the public the chance to participate fully in the experiment. This
reduces accountability of the field and the ability for a third
party to check/verify their results (without, as I'm proposing, repeating
them.)

What is the difference between a psi experiment performed in
secret, and a psi experiment performed in public? It seems here
we're calling the former "scientific research" and the latter a
"parlor trick" which is of no use. I find the idea of support for a
closed, private investigation, yet such skepticism for open, public
investigations, to be disturbing. Joe McMoneagle talks about
openness, peer-review, criticism and accountability in his interviews.

I agree. But where is the peer-review, openness, criticism and
accountability if we (a) can't look at the lab data, (b) aren't
supposed to 'set up our own lab' to do something similar?
There's no "peer-review", no "openness", no ability to
criticise, and no accountability in that system. We have to
rely on faith in the scientists in order to accept the premise
that psi is "for real" in this scenerio, because the majority of
lab data is unobtainable and thus unexaminable, unreviewable.

I am not entering the experiment under the assumption that psi
either does or does not exist. I am entering the experiment in
order to attempt to replicate the experiments and findings of
similar studies. That IS science, and it's done all the time. Science
does not have to be done by scientists, or in a lab. Science is
a methodology, a way of testing, experimenting, arriving at
conclusions, etc. That's what I'm proposing. A scientific
run of experiments. An attempt to replicate the findings of
psi laboratories.

>if you want to test things on the net...do like Paul does...come up
>with some nifty targets and let people view them...then check the number of
>"rookie successes" with the number of "pros successes"...check the accuracy of
>hits...

Given the complexities of measuring psi in this manner, I would rather stick to
simpler, more clear-cut experiments. They've been done before and
apparently got above-50% scores, so what's the problem in repeating the
experiments?

Besides, there is always the UT skeptic site for things like that. Not that
many people want to acknowledge that the idea behind the UT skeptic site
is a sound one, either. Even if (perhaps) they're not perfect. You can hardly
blame them on such a complex psi experiment for perhaps getting things wrong.
Some might say they should of tried red and black cards, instead, it'd be
much easier :)

Lyn has claimed on air that he has got, I believe, 58.3% accuracy in viewing
red and black cards in his experiments. I am proposing we perform our own
experiment, and try to replicate those findings. Is that really so unthinkable?

Or because we are outside a lab, does psi suddenly cease to exist and become
unrepeatable, protected by a variety of pre-prepared explanations to explain
why this sort of thing can only ever be done in labs?

>check similarity of responses...do people use the same words to
>describe same items...do they use these words every time this type of object
>is observed....see there are lots of ways to learn things about RV without
>resorting parlor games...

Why are you so resistent to rerunning a simple laboratory experiment that
evidently many people would be interested in contributing in? What is there
to lose?

I honestly believe that it's way past time that this field moved into a new era
of
openness, where it does not condemn or dismiss any attempts to publicly test and
measure psi vs. chance accuracy, where instead these kinds of tests and
scrutinisations are encouraged, and where everyone can be involved from start to
finish in the *entire* process, from planning, to application, to the trials
themselves,
through to the presentation of results, to the analysis of the data, to.. if we
ever
get that far.. the stage of drawing up summarises, analysis and conclusions
based on the experimental trials.

I simply do not understand why people can call an open public environment
a "parlor trick", and the same thing done in a lab, in a closed private
environment, "scientific research." Why the disparity?

What separates the two? As far as I can tell, one is public, one is private.
There is nothing else to stop the experiments being basicly identical
in purpose and practice, if enough research is performed to make sure
that's exactly what they are.

Science is about repeatability. If an experiment cannot be repeated with
similar or same results the second we step out of a lab, one has to ask
why? And why such resistence to the idea of giving it a try? Why don't
we want to attempt to repeat these experiments and the findings,
conclusions etc? Is this some kind of sin? Must the conclusions be
taken on pure faith in the scientists and the labs, and that their
conclusions are true based on our faith or respect for those scientists,
having -nothing whatsoever to do with having reviewed their data- or
having attempted to repeat their experiments and got similar results?

I honestly feel an open, objective, fair, rational, peer-reviewable,
public, repeatable set of experiments cannot hurt, and can only advance
our understanding, if anything. I am bemused that laboratory findings
are used by some individuals (not talking about you here, Gene) to
bolster their argument that "psi is real", then become resistent to the
idea of re-running those experiments publicly.

From my heart, Gene - honestly, all I want to do is to re-run those
experiments publicly. I am doing my best right now to obtain as much
information as possible on how to best do these experiments, before
beginning. I may indeed have made a few mistakes in my post
here, because of my lack of familiarity with some scientific "truths".

However, I understand fully the concept of peer-review, accountability,
openness, repeatability etc, and it is these concepts I am latching onto, and
are the
reason for my desire, my need, to re-run these experiments publicly.

I want to repeat lab experiments and attempt to replicate their
findings. Is that such a bad idea? I can only think it's good science, not
bad science, to try to do this.

If you'd like to be helpful, you are welcome to suggest ways to ensure that
a proposed red/black or other "binary experiment" can be performed and operated
under controlled conditions to test for psi. Any information you might have on
how previous experiments were performed, under what conditions etc., would
be extremely useful in the "setting up" phase of this project.

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/214)

 12:28:10

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Bevy,

Thank you for the information on the cards, I found it useful :)

It might be worth me getting these cards eventually, but part of
me definately wants to try a binary psi experiment. If I ever do
do an experiment, binary or not, then I'll want to make sure I've
researched it properly before anything begins. There's no point
spotting a mistake mid-way through the experiment and having to
restart, afterall, if you can instead know the ground rules from the
very beginning of the experiment.

If anyone reading has been involved with red/black card experiments
in a laboratory (i.e. controlled) setting, I'd appreciate them getting in
touch with me here or (perhaps better) by private e-mail. Anything
anyone could tell me on the controls surrounding those experiments,
statistical methods that were used, general methods used to
'receive'/'transmit' the colour etc.. basically, anything at all about
how the experiment was performed, would be useful. Since LynB
remembers card experiments (red/black?) being performed in the
RV unit at some time, I can only hope that someone reading here
from the ex-RV unit was involved in one of the card test experiments
and is able to help, hopefully by providing enough information to as
closely re-create the experiments as possible. If anyone reading
CAN help, please get it touch. Thanks, it's appreciated! :)

And thanks again, Bevy, for the information :)

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  Mind Race 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/215)

 12:28:18

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

From Marilyn Huff (huff@...):

I have found several copies of Russell Targ and Keith Harary's Book
"Mind Race" in a used book store. I bought them, hoping to sell them,
Not for profit, but only for my expenses, since there seemed to be such
an interest.

I have 4 copies that are in very good shape, first edition, hard back,
complete with outer paper cover. One has a bit of pencil underlining and
an inscription and another has the hard cover on upside down. They are
very clean. My cost, including postage, packaging comes to about $14.00.
(I just had a scare where I sent one to someone and it didn't get there,
so maybe I need to insure them. It turned out that it arrived OK.) I
would need to include that cost also. I will send to the U.S. only, the
cost to England is $23.00, unless I can find another way to send it. The
books are quite heavy.

Of course, the bookstore people thought I was totally nuts for buying so
many of the same book. But we RV'rs in training can't be bothered by a
little thing like insanity now, can we?

Please let me know if you want one. I also found several other copies,
but they were more expensive. I would be willing to try to get them down
in price if people want more than I have. I did it on the 4th book I
bought and I can do it again.

Let me know at huff@...

Marilyn


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Sony psi research closed down 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/216)

 12:28:29

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

> It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no practicale
>applications were possible. Is this another cover up denouncing psi so
>that the practical applications go underground.
>
>Surely, as the many RV groups have found, psi even at a low level can
>aid in finding Oil, people, etc. A very bizzare conclusion!

Hi Bill,

Well, you'd think they'd find applications, wouldn't you? Perhaps they're
just being a pragmatic, hard-headed businessmen, and like corporations
can easily be, find it very difficult to adapt to new circumstances, preferring
to stick to their home terriority, where they know the grounds. Corporations
tend to enter new markets by buying up companies that are established in
those markets, rather than through their own resourcefulness. Companies
like Microsoft come to mind.

If the story is accurate, they're probably wondering what consumer products
they can mass-manufacture, sell and market from it. Not exactly visionary,
but for an electronics company, they might have felt psi was incompatible
with the sort of things they like to make, sell, etc.

Say a large psi corporation or company really took off. Perhaps Sony,
if still interested, would buy out the company if they saw the market was
heading that way. That's how corporations tend to "think" - acquisitions,
joint ventures and mergers.

But of course, you could easily be right! Sony might simply be denying any
interest in the subject because it was a potential source of embarassment
(remind us of anyone, folks?) Whether they're still doing anything is up for
debate really. It's hard to say. Companies do often keep secrets, and are
very protective of their trade secrets, so perhaps they're just trying to throw
their competitors off-track, and are really taking it "underground."

But some how, intellectually, the idea of a consumer-products corporation
researching psi with an idea to making money out of it seems - incompatible.
It's hard enough to say what psi *is*, no one really knows what it is or what
lies behind it, so how do you turn that unknown force/whatever into a
marketable product? I think of their statement about wanting to put chi
energy into batteries. Sounds like typical conservative corporation
thinking.

Something tells me that building interactive and digital TVs, etc. are a
high-priority for Sony right now, and the psi research was something of
a bafflement for the existing management. Perhaps they just felt
there wasn't enough $billion's to be made in it to keep them
interested in pursueing it any further (corporations think "profit.")

Best always,
Steve.




stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/217)

 12:28:47

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hi Bill,

> I'm definitely interested and would participate ( along with my more
>psychic son).

That's great news! :)

>The simpler the test the better, than statistics can be
>uesd to assess the results relative to chance.

My thinking exactly. By chance we can get it right 50% of the time.
Whether the lack of psi or the existence of anti-psi/negative-psi (see
my reply to Curran2106), something I have intellectual problems in
accepting as an explanation for a 50% accuracy score personally, the
real test is to see if psi can do better than chance in a reliable way. If we
start getting consistently an average of 55% or more over a long period
of time, then something interesting is happening whichis more than
statistical fluke.

>Terms like 25% , 50%, 75% etc. don't mean much statistically. Even 1%
>success could be way above chance and 95% could be only chance
>depending on the way the experiment is set up and the number of
>possible answers.

Exactly right. Hence my problems with the varying statistics of
25%, 33%, 35%, 50%, 70%, 85%, 100% etc. offered as "the accuracy of remote-
viewing." Which one's the "right one"?? IS there a "right one"? And what is
"chance"? (But then, if the rules let us score sessions as low as 25% and as
high as 85% depending on the system you're using, it's reasonable to assume
that as the accuracy level moevs, so does the chance level as the parameters of
scoring it are changed.)

A red/black or "binary" experiment, in theory, gets around this problem,
as we can deal with clear-cut statistics. At least, that's the hope. Chance
is 50%. For psi to be useful practically, it needs to score above 50%. We
can just "stay tuned" to watch the overallscores, and the scoresof the
individuals. Perhaps certain individuals will be better at this then others.

>Also you need almost immediate feedback to keep the players going,
>and computation of odds.

I was planning to provide feedback every week or so. I'm still
working out the specifics, though. I could do with a lot more information
then I have so far.

>Also, a comparison of scores with other RVers, and psychics might be
>challenging. It could be called "Beat the Psychic--challenge". Hey I'd
>even donate in on the winning pot!

Cool! ;-) Actually, I was thinking of something along those lines - not
a "winning pot", although that sounds like it'd add excitement to the
thing (incentive to viewer? Improve psi performance? I wonder.)

I was thinking of giving each viewer a unique number, like in the
ex-military unit, perhaps label people as V01, V02, etc :) People
would be anonymous though, unless they *wanted* to be identified.

This way, it also opens up some interesting possibilities. If we see
"gifted" people scoring 70% accuracy regularly, we can perhaps focus our
attentions on them.. there's nothing to say we have to stop with
a red/black experiment, afterall :)

Best always,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/218)

 12:29:02

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Steve--

At 10:27 AM 7/9/98 +-100, you wrote:


>Exactly right. Hence my problems with the varying statistics of
>25%, 33%, 35%, 50%, 70%, 85%, 100% etc. offered as "the accuracy of remote-
>viewing." Which one's the "right one"?? IS there a "right one"? And what is
>"chance"?

You must remember--these "percentages" thrown around about RV are not
deviations from CHANCE--they are estimates of what percentage of RV
sessions produce unambiguous results. Chance calculations for RV
experiments are a different animal altogether--they have to do with whether
a judge can pick the right target an RV session describes out of a pool of
five or six other decoy targets. As such they are as much a measure of the
judge's discriminative abilities as of the rmeote viewer's success. In an
RV session against a target that was picked from an inifnite target pool
(in other words, the target could be anything in the world), it is
essentially impossible to calculate deviations from chance. The viewer
shouldn't get such a target even *once*--the odds against it are
incalculable. But even when a viewer succeeds several times (among perhaps
several misses), there are those who simmply can't accept the fact that
something "psychic" is happening!

>>Also you need almost immediate feedback to keep the players going,
>>and computation of odds.

>I was planning to provide feedback every week or so.

Nope, that's not often enough; if you're going to have a binary
color-guessing experiment the feedback has to be IMMEDIATE--with every
choice. Since you want to do this online you will need to automate it in
some way. You could have a neutral-colored square that turns red or black
periodically, determined by a random number generator (there are software
versions of these--checkwith Angela Thompson Smith). You can have two
buttons underneath which the subject can click on with a mouse--one button
for red, the other for black. The color-square turns what ever color the
RNG specifies as soon as the subject clicks on whichever button he/she
chooses. The computer then keeps track of which button was clicked,
together with what color turned out to be correct. You'd limit a "run" to
probably ten tries, but the subject could do as many or as few funs as
desired. you'd have to have a computer-maintained account for each subject
so you cold keep track of the results without a HUGE amount of bookkeeping.

More about your red/black experiment in other posts.

Enjoy!
Paul


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/219)

 12:30:01

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Steve--

At 09:04 AM 7/9/98 +-100, you wrote:

>If people tire of this "parlor trick", they should be all means quit while
they're ahead.

One of the issues Gene is talking about is a very real problem I'll here
call "experiment boredom" (it has a real name, but it escapes me right
now--I stayed up too late and got up too early! ;-). In effect, the
subject WANTS to do the experiment, but after numerous repeats of the same
old repetitive tasks, scores fall off dramatically, likely because the
subsconscious has gotten bored with the lack of variety. It is
analogically similar to apetite boredom, where people who have nothing but
one food--say unsweetened oatmeal--to eat for years might starve to death
rather than eat another bite of oatmeal!

What Gene is referring to is that sometimes surprising and unintentionally
creative things started happening--just as if the person's subconscious
decided to play tricks to alleviate the boredom. BTW, that was one of the
reasons Ingo's experiments at ASPR evolved into remote viewing. In RV,
there is always variety, becuase every target is different, and challenging
in different ways. There is much less opportunity for experiment boredom
to develop.

Before you even launch into your experiment, I suggest you read Dean
Radin's book "The Conscious Universe" (available from Amazon.com or perhaps
at a local library). He shows the resultant statistical and
metastatistical analyses of thousands of these and related sorts of
experiments, providing an airtight case in my opinion for the existence of
psi.

You might, BTW, also want to look into the research JB Rhine did--there are
a number of books out on it, probably available at a library near you. He
did literally thousands of card-guessing experiments of various kinds (many
using the ziner (sp?) cards mentioned by Bevy). I don't know if any of
them were binary colors or not.

>For your information, behind this experiment, I am working on the following
>premise:
>
>- Results are equal or bordering on chance: Psi ability has not been
>unambiguously demonstrated to exist in this particular experiment.

I'm not sure this is the case. I think there have been binary psi
esperiments that demonstrated conclusive statistical effects. Again, see
Radin and Rhine.

>>3. Let;s say that a viewer gets a consistent 75% correct hits...then all of
>>sudden they begin to get only 25% correct hits...What does that
mean..?..Have
>>they burned out?...Have they lost it?...hmmmmm???...Actually getting 75%
>>correct hits is the same as getting 25% correct hits...ask any
>>mathematician...
>
>That would assume the existence of "negative psi," getting consistently WORSE
>than chance. I cannot logically reconcile how "negative psi" could exist,

Actually, it does, and in some experiments is as robust as positive
effects. It is known in the literature as "psi-missing," and happens when
a subject produces results significantly *below* chance outcomes.

>I think if negative and positive psi both exist, and they have this effect
of cancelling
>each other out, causing the average to be chance, 50%, then sticking with
ways of
>calculating things by chance is, in the long run, just as effective.

I would suspect that statistical meta-analysis could be used to sort
through such problems as Gene presents.

>benefit is psi? It has little practical application if in the long run,
if the long-term
>results generated are no better than if we'd relied on chance.

Don't get experimental results confused with practical applications. They
are entirely different things. Lab experiments are designed to be
quantitatively evaluate-able (couldn't think of a better word right
now). But that says nothing about the QUALitative aspects which--after
all--are where the practical applications are.

>>5. .......and besides card tricks are just that...card tricks...they prove
>>nothing...

What "card tricks" can prove is an effect. They cannot demonstrate a
causal linkage. But that is the case with ALL psi experiments, even RV.

>Besides, there is always the UT skeptic site for things like that. Not that
>many people want to acknowledge that the idea behind the UT skeptic site
>is a sound one, either. Even if (perhaps) they're not perfect. You can
hardly
>blame them on such a complex psi experiment for perhaps getting things
wrong.
>Some might say they should of tried red and black cards, instead, it'd be
>much easier :)

Actually, they wanted to do something like that, but I talked them into
something more interesting. Right now they're still trying to quantify an
approach, with the current idea of making a multiple-choice form where you
indicate the presence or absence of various gestalts, sensories, etc. This
also has been done before, at SRI and SAIC--but as far as I know the
results haven't been released.

FYI, the format for the experiment at the RV unit was to use a limited
number of cards from a regular deck of playing cards with the face cards
removed. They would be shuffled, then the placed face down on a table.
The subject would declare "red" or "black" for whichever color he/she
thought would be on the top most card. The card was then turned over, and
the subject's response and the actual color recorded. The subject could
stop any time, and could do as many or as few "runs" at a sitting as
desired. On any given run, the subject might try all ten, or stop after
getting three in a row right. Statistics were kept on how many cards were
guess in each run, and what the correct "guesses" were (I hate this term
"card guessing," by the way; if we're presuming there is psi afoot, there
has to be more than "guessing"involved!).

Enjoy,
Paul


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/220)

 12:30:40

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

At 09:43 AM 7/9/98 +0000, you wrote:

>One of the issues Gene is talking about is a very real problem I'll here
>call "experiment boredom" (it has a real name, but it escapes me right
>now--I stayed up too late and got up too early! ;-). In effect, the
>subject WANTS to do the experiment, but after numerous repeats of the same
>old repetitive tasks, scores fall off dramatically, likely because the
>subsconscious has gotten bored with the lack of variety. It is
>analogically similar to apetite boredom, where people who have nothing but
>one food--say unsweetened oatmeal--to eat for years might starve to death
>rather than eat another bite of oatmeal!
>
>What Gene is referring to is that sometimes surprising and unintentionally
>creative things started happening--just as if the person's subconscious
>decided to play tricks to alleviate the boredom. BTW, that was one of the
>reasons Ingo's experiments at ASPR evolved into remote viewing. In RV,
>there is always variety, becuase every target is different, and challenging
>in different ways. There is much less opportunity for experiment boredom
>to develop.

I wonder if this could be handled by making the target interesting but
continuing to require only a binary choice. In experimental design, this
technique is known as separation of stimulus and reponse complexity. It seems
to me that the simulus could be as complex as you wanted it to be. The
response
could still be simple -- red vs. black, dark vs. light, tall vs. short,
structure vs. land vs. water.


Best regards,
Michael


R. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D.
42 Lenox Pointe
Atlanta, GA 30324



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/221)

 12:30:57

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Michael--

Glad to see you up on Stargate!

At 11:10 PM 7/8/98 -0400, you wrote:

>could still be simple -- red vs. black, dark vs. light, tall vs. short,
>structure vs. land vs. water.

Hhhhmmm. Interesting notion--and sounds kinda fun. It would be a little
complicated to set up, but still doable, seems to me. Any alphageeks out
there who might be interested in tackling the programming aspects (but make
sure it's y2k compiant!;-) for poor Steve? ('Course, maybe he's competent
himself to do it. He's often surprised me in the past!)

Also, sorry I haven't responded about your EEG experiment query, Michael.
Send me a quick outline of what you have in mind.

Now, back to work.

Enjoy,
Paul



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/222)

 12:31:12

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<<
Lyn has claimed on air that he has got, I believe, 58.3% accuracy in viewing
red and black cards in his experiments. I am proposing we perform our own
experiment, and try to replicate those findings. Is that really so
unthinkable?
>>
I ran some of those experiments with Lyn using the most stringent control
measures and scientific protocols...If Lyn scored 58+% then he is to be
congratulated...but take into account, Lyn (and the rest of us) were so
"shotgunned" in our repsonses that there weas no way we could continuously
score anything better than chance...


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/223)

 12:31:29

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<< Why are you so resistent to rerunning a simple laboratory experiment that
evidently many people would be interested in contributing in? What is there
to lose?
>>
Steve...pull in your dagger...I am not resisting anything..I am not
participating..I was just sending you the wisdom of twenty years in this
business and calling to challenge the statement of 58.3% for Lyn...he is a
dear friend and he knows he could not consiostently score above 50/50 like the
rest of us..some days it was higher some days it was lower...its your test and
if you feel it will give you some sort of imperical data on which to vbasae a
clear defendable position...what the heck to to I care...I am already a proven
Pshchic ...don't have to prove it to anyone ever again...
gene...


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/224)

 12:31:40

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>I ran some of those experiments with Lyn using the most stringent control
>measures and scientific protocols...If Lyn scored 58+% then he is to be
>congratulated...but take into account, Lyn (and the rest of us) were so
>"shotgunned" in our repsonses that there weas no way we could continuously
>score anything better than chance...

Thanks for your comments, Gene.

I'm pretty sure that Lyn had said he had 58.3% average, and that Joe once
(only once) scored 100% on 52 cards.. I'll re-listen to that part of the Art
Bell
show to check and will let you know when I find.

I appreciate your comments on red/black, etc. Michael's suggested we could
try a similar binary experiment but with something different. My main concern
is in attempting a binary experiment, and there's no reason we can't find some
way to make it interesting, but still keep the experiment fairly simple. I'm
game
to any suggestions! I'm not hell-bent on having a red/black card test, that was
just a suggestion.. I'm interested in proposals for a "binary" experiment,
though..

Again, thanks for contributing. Any ideas on possible binary experiments that
would be "interesting" to the viewer but are basically binary in nature?

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/225)

 12:31:50

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hi Bevy!

Thanks for the reply. I agree 100% that psi is not mediated by EMF.
However, I think these experiemnts and stories I posted are indicative
of stimulating certain areas of the brain, which may be more sensitive
to psi. The brain is clearly influenced by EMF and magnetics, and it is
this rather than psi signal or psi reception that is effected by EMF
osccilating fields. Is the difference clear? All psi seems to be
received initially at a subconcious primitive level in the brain, and
accessing this primitive area may be stimulated by EMF, or altered
states, or protocols such as CRV.

Best Regards, Bill


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/226)

 12:32:00

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Steve...pull in your dagger...I am not resisting anything..I am not
>participating..I was just sending you the wisdom of twenty years in this
>business and calling to challenge the statement of 58.3% for Lyn...he is a
>dear friend and he knows he could not consiostently score above 50/50 like the
>rest of us..some days it was higher some days it was lower...its your test and

Hi Gene,

I've just been re-listening to the Art Bell Show of 25/3/97. Play from about
20 minutes in the show (Lyn starts talking about it at about red-black cards
at 22 minutes but there's a small prelude IYSWIM) (time includes adverts etc),
Lyn actually says his extended experiment on red and black cards puts it at
at 68.3%, not 58.3% as I had remembered (well, 2 numbers out of 3 isn't bad ;).

Although perhaps Lyn had only just started the experment. You'd have to ask
him.
(I would ask myself, but he does not seem to be replying to emails at the
moment and I don't fancy calling international-direct :)

RealAudio/RealPlayer users can go to the show by select 'Open Location'
and typing:

http://ww2.audionet.com/artbell/abell/9703/ab0325.ram - then skipping
forward to about 20-22 minutes.

Lyn's stats of 68.3% was what originally got me thinking about doing binary
experiments with red/black cards, and lately after finding some playing cards,
got me thinking about doing an experiment similar to the one where Lyn
referred to 68.3% accuracy on the Art Bell show.

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/227)

 12:32:16

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>I wonder if this could be handled by making the target interesting but
>continuing to require only a binary choice. In experimental design, this
>technique is known as separation of stimulus and reponse complexity. It seems
>to me that the simulus could be as complex as you wanted it to be. The
>response
>could still be simple -- red vs. black, dark vs. light, tall vs. short,
>structure vs. land vs. water.

I agree it should be interesting. I don't know much about the processes
involved, but presumably this would be on a web-site, and some sort of
random-number type generator would have to be behind the scenes to
ensure that the colours or whatever come up as randomly as possible
(??).

Say red and black are decided upon. Then perhaps, if it's not too
complicated (and I know nothing about programming, so sorry if it's too
outlandish a suggestion), some sort of scoring could be fed back to
us...in money terms....it would be as if we were all playing roulette,
and the one that accumulates the biggest 'pot' gets the 'prize' (or just
the satisfaction, if no-one's buying ). Further analysis could be
done behind the scenes of course.

This is a light-hearted suggestion, and may not appeal to some, but I
think that if there's an element of fun in the experiment then all the
better.

Whatever is decided, I'll definitely join in though.

BTW you may/may not know of the little applet on enchantedmind.com that
uses colours.
--
Regards,
Glyn


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/228)

 12:32:48

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<<
Again, thanks for contributing. Any ideas on possible binary experiments
that
would be "interesting" to the viewer but are basically binary in nature?

Best regards,
Steve. >>
One final note and then I let it die...If we psychics could consistenty score
better than chance on binaries...we should all be millionaires...many times
over...by simply playing the daily/weekly lotteries or even the stock
markets...on a binary Yes/No protocol...but GUESS WHAT!!!!...we tried that
also...including Lyn...and we are all still working stiffs not living the
lives of luxery one would expect of people who supposedly should be able to do
something as simple as picking six numbers...
Gene..


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/229)

 12:33:07

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<<
Lyn's stats of 68.3% was what originally got me thinking about doing binary
experiments with red/black cards, and lately after finding some playing
cards,
got me thinking about doing an experiment similar to the one where Lyn
referred to 68.3% accuracy on the Art Bell show.

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/230)

 12:33:24

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>There is also evidence I've seen on Discovery Channel that stimulating
>the temporal lobes of the brain with an oscilating field of certain
>frequencies causes psi like effects. OOBE's, voices etc. although these
>investigators did not try to determine if these manifestations were
>truly psychic or simply hallucinations in fact claimed the opposite
>without any experiments.
Thanks for that Bill, very interesting. I'll do some 'searching' on the
web and see what I can find.

As for the 'black ops'.........Who knows what goes on behind closed
doors? Nothing would surprise me. It's enough to give you the 'heebie-
geebies' though! Shame it always seems to be for military purposes, but
I guess they get the funding, and we can always hope for 'good' spin-
offs.......like getting us all interested in rv :-)

--
Regards,
Glyn


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/231)

 12:33:37

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Dr. Andrija Puharich did a great deal of work on PSI fields operating while in
>or out of magnetic fields. He used a Farraday (sp) cage for some of the
>experimental trials and found that magnetic fields did not seem to be a factor
>either for or against the operation and efficiency of PSI. (Dr. P. also found
>correlation between some phases of the lunar orb to create a small effect) (no
>comment)
Hello Bevy,

Dammit, I've just gone to look amongst my collection of dusty books, and
guess what I've just found..'Beyond Telepathy' by Andrija Puharich. I'd
completely forgotten about it until you mentioned his name. I bought it
back in 1975. The experiments are there......I'll re-read it. Thanks.

I've also 'found' 'Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain' by
Sheila Ostrander & Lynn Schroeder, which I got in '73. There's mention
re experiments with electro-magnetic fields in that too.

That'll teach me. Look first, ask questions later!

Many thanks,

ps. I didn't do too well on your first target...:-(. Try try again....
--
Regards,
Glyn


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/232)

 12:33:52

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Quite creative and resourceful of you to think of incorporating rv'ing during
>an MRI scan. I don't really know much about the studies regarding the effect
>of magnetic fields on psi (I'm sure someone else on the list will address
>this),
>but I wonder whether having to concentrate intently on something else than
>the
>MRI and implications, where you forced yourself to block out distractions
>helped
>you to access the target.

Hello Roger,

Yes, I think that such a different *environment* may have been the key.
Difficult to say without being able to repeat it, but I also agree with
other posters that exposure to very strong electro-magnetic fields over
time, could prove dangerous. The operator of the scanner left the room,
shut the door and observed things through the window in the next room !

The security was very tight, passcodes to get in doors, warning signs
everywhere, questions (same set by two different people) to make sure I
had no metal plates or splinters in my body...or was wearing metal (gold
was OK though...and nobody asked about fillings in my teeth so they must
have been OK too). Potentially dangerous physically, let alone mentally!

Perhaps I'll buy me a *little* magnet :-)
--
Regards,
Glyn


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/233)

 12:34:01

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Dear Michael,

I appreciate what you said about peer review. I am a research scientist
and used to that system. But when a peer reviewed article comes out
demonstrating psi...the great majority of scientists conclude unfairly
that the researchers were just to stupid or self deluded to find the
flaw in there analysis, or as the skeptics frequently say simply
cheeted. Therefore, the peer review process breaks down totally in an
area like psi or like UFO's where the peer scientists know that simply
agreeing with the possibility of such concepts can and has gotten them
fired. On the other hand a simple wide open for anyone to view test on
the web, (actually better on a completely public site) has alot to offer
if done in a manner that can't be questioned. The experiements and
stats. are relatively simple, its the fool proof open design that can't
be rigged that would finally impress.

Regards,

Bill Pendergrass Ph.D. ( Biochemistry).



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/234)

 12:34:11

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Kopfjaeger wrote:

> I know it seems like it should work, but it doesn't. After a steady
> diet of lousy results, your subconscious will run screaming from the
> project.

It is my experience/sense that the subconscious is about as interested
in games of chance (after the first few trials) as the conscious mind is
in being stalled in traffic on the freeway. Which is why an individual's
results with RVing are likely to be most successful when viewing
targets that have some real purpose (real life application) behind the
viewing.
Although I must admit on a conscious level I love to play those games
of chance.
Shelia



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/235)

 12:34:40

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Excuse me, forgot to say that Aries does not have means to take orders by
phone....sorrry to say. Only snail.

Secondly, forgot to say that they have a better symbol deck than the zener
deck, same price and shipping.

'scuse.
Bevy J


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 MAGNETIC FIELDS 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/236)

 12:34:50

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Actually, doing a scan while in a MRI is a new 'take' on an experiment Dr.
Karlis Osis wanted to do at one time. We discussed something of that nature
being applied while a student was learning to RV. His interest was in 'what
happened to the brain' while performing this task.
I know that there have been some experiments along these lines here and
there, but have no data on the use of an MRI during rv. Does anyone?
Bevy J
Only thing reported professionally was that there was 'excess electrical
activity in the rear brain during 'psychic' work'. (Not Osis's statement)


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/237)

 12:35:07

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

> I appreciate what you said about peer review. I am a research scientist
>and used to that system. But when a peer reviewed article comes out
>demonstrating psi...the great majority of scientists conclude unfairly
>that the researchers were just to stupid or self deluded to find the
>flaw in there analysis, or as the skeptics frequently say simply
>cheeted. Therefore, the peer review process breaks down totally in an
>area like psi or like UFO's where the peer scientists know that simply
>agreeing with the possibility of such concepts can and has gotten them
>fired.

Bill,

Actually the peer review process *works* because the article is evaluated
by the review panel for the research journal. This review panel consists
of other researchers working in the field, and these are the "peers"
referred to by the term "peer review." It a review of the experimental
design chosen, analysis methods, and the logic behind the conclusions
drawn. It is not an observation of the experiment or inspection of the data.

I also work within the publication system, and we both know there are
weaknesses there. I am not disputing that. I merely wanted to point out
that experiments published in most research journals does go through peer
review this term is generally understood. The response of the wider
scientific community is another issue, not an issue of peer review.

>On the other hand a simple wide open for anyone to view test on
>the web, (actually better on a completely public site) has alot to offer
>if done in a manner that can't be questioned. The experiements and
>stats. are relatively simple, its the fool proof open design that can't
>be rigged that would finally impress.

I am fully in favor of these kinds of tests. The more often effects can be
replicated and observed, the better.

Best regards,
Michael
R. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D.
42 Lenox Pointe
Atlanta, GA 30324


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/238)

 12:35:16

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Dave and I sometimes go down to the Casinos for fun. We usually take
about $20.00 and that lasts all evening! We get $5 of nickels, some
quarters, and play red and black on the roulette. One time, we thought we
had found a sure fire method of winning. We would watch the roulette
whell before playing and check to see if we were psi hitting or psi
missing (about 10 spins of the wheel). If we were psi hitting ie getting
more than 50% correct, then one of us would bet and the other would call
the color - red or black. If we were psi missing - hitting less than 50%
- one of us would bet against the one who was calling the numbers. The
first time we played we bet $10 and came away with $50 - exactly what we
needed to buy a christmas tree and some decorations. We thought we had
hit on a sure fire winning method. Then we played again - and lost
miserably. Since then we have played the psi hit/psi miss method a couple
of times and won several times - more than we put into the game. However,
we soon got bored with the game and haven't played for a long time. The
Decline Effect kicked in!

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith
Inner Vision


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 RV Targets 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/239)

 12:35:26

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Would any of the stargate list subscribers be interested in participating
in some Inner Vision pilot research? next week, I will be placing some
target envelopes in my office on certain days and at certain times. Some
of the target sessions will be real time i.e. the target will be
generated and placed in the envelope just prior to the time the viewing
is conducted. Other targets will be generated after the viewing is done
ie the viewing effort will be precognitive. You will not be told which
condition you are participating in until after the pilot study. If you
are interested email Catalyst@... to arrange a day and date
for your session. Hopefully, I will be able to email your picture target
following your effort. You will not be judged on the quality of your
viewing and any method/protocol will be accepted (ERV, CRV, TRV, SRV
etc.) Just send me your session summary, I don't think my current
computer system will handle large files and graphics. I would be
interested to hear which method you choose to do the viewing. The results
of the pilot project will be posted on the psi, innervision and stargate
lists.

Thank you
Angela Thompson Smith
The Inner Vision Research Institute
Catalyst@...


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards reply to Steve 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/240)

 12:35:36

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Steve, I

I feel your points about doing an open psi experiment are all founded.
I think a wide open study on the net is possibly more valid than in a
closed lab. where the conditions of the experiment could have been
faulty or the data juggled. Everything is above board and
unreproachable.


As far as statistics I'll ask around. But I think that each person
should have a training period on the task and when ready to start
accumulating data, ALL TRIALS AFTER THAT POINT have to be accumulated
and the odds recomputed to give valid results. So if he has a hot string
and his p value is 1 in 10,000 for 20 tries, then the next 20 tries,
he is just chance, the two should be combined otherwise a selection bias
can enter in.

When a predetermined number of trials have been completed ( say 20),
that final result should be considered a final for say that month. There
are statistics that will show that after alot of trials ( say 200
trials, this will vary according to the way the experiment is set up)
the result is not going to change on a random basis significantly in the
next 200 or 2000 trials. And if the psi candidate repeats 200 more
trials again in a month or so it can be considered a new experiment.
When set up this way, If scores do change on subsequent complete
complete experiments done in another month,then the change can be
considered a true change in the skill level of the psi candidate rather
than any ramdom purterbation.



The contributors could post new results but not more than one whole
experiment per month and track there skill level.


Bill





stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Sony psi research closed down 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/241)

 12:36:15

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

> It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no >practicale
applications were possible. Is this another cover up >denouncing psi so
that the practical applications go underground.

>Surely, as the many RV groups have found, psi even at a low level can
>aid in finding Oil, people, etc. A very bizzare conclusion!

I think this is a typical example of the narrowmindedness of corperate
execs, more than anything.. First off, they obviously weren't familiar
with RV, and even had they been, I doubt they would've managed to snag a
copy of the Tech. Transfer Protocols from the farsight site before they
were removed, as I have.. Hehe.. I wanna see if, at some point I can
scrape together the resources to start a company based on the
application of these protocols.. Anyone interested, drop me a line..

-Tao_Sk8r


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/242)

 12:36:25

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hello Gene, The point is that you could be very psychic with a score of
say 58% if you did enough trials, but to make money on 58% you would
have to play alot of roulette or craps. Picking six numbers correctly in
the lottery would still be a huge longshot when you are only 56%
correct. But $$ could be made on a roulette wheel or craps playing all
night long. Ever try it? You wouldn't walk away breaking the bank , but
could probably make a living and supplement your pension and some
gamblers do. Ever try it that way?

Regards

Bill


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/243)

 12:36:42

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>I agree. But where is the peer-review, openness, criticism and
>accountability if we (a) can't look at the lab data, (b) aren't
>supposed to 'set up our own lab' to do something similar?
>There's no "peer-review", no "openness", no ability to
>criticise, and no accountability in that system. We have to
>rely on faith in the scientists in order to accept the premise
>that psi is "for real" in this scenerio, because the majority of
>lab data is unobtainable and thus unexaminable, unreviewable.


Steve,

I applaud your efforts to replicate the card guessing experiment. I do
need to point out, though, that you have misunderstood the meaning of "peer
review" as it is used in research. Peer review means that a scientist's
work has been reviewed by scientific colleagues, peers in the scientific
community, and judged worthy of publication. Most scientific journals use
peer review to determine whether an article should be published. ( A few
do not. You can tell by reading their editorial policies.) So most
studies you see in print are peer reviewed.

Most researchers also practice openness. It is also considered the
scientist's responsibility to preserve raw data from an experiment for a
period of time. Most researchers will give you access to that data if you
ask within a reasonable time. I have gotten data for re-analysis several
times this way, just by calling and asking.

Best regards,
Michael




R. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D.
Corporate and Clinical Psychologist
42 Lenox Pointe
Atlanta, GA 30324


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/244)

 12:36:51

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<<
Ah, Gene--but many of them are electronic these days! ;-)

Paul
>>
Ah yes but Paul...these same people who claim to be able to influence such
things should have no problem making the grand leap to influencing as simple
as computer programs since they are in reality only a binary code...yes/no
type influence shoudlbe a piece of cake...
Gene..


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 RV Targets 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/245)

 12:37:14

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

I'll participate - How are you judging? Will you be mixing the target in
with 3 other decoys then having a 3rd party judge, rank the images to the RV
perceptions as per typical protocol?

I've done lot's of precognitive research (well, actually associative remote
viewing). If you are interested in my results, I'd be happy to discuss them
with you.

gk

Angela Thompson Smith wrote:

> Would any of the stargate list subscribers be interested in participating
> in some Inner Vision pilot research? next week, I will be placing some


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/246)

 12:37:29

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

---Curran2106@... wrote:
...but Gregg..I can assure you those who think they can
> beat the stock market, find the Lost Dutchman or whip up on the
craps table
> are not the type of people who will listen to reason anyhow...Thanxs
for the
> support anyhow...how have you been...?
> Gene..

I'd complain, but nobody wants to listen. I'm afraid I haven't quite
had all the idealism beat out of me, yet, due to some tantalizingly
near-misses. That time-slip foible of RV is a mutha!...especially when
you're paying for the recovery team out-of-pocket.

Greg



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/247)

 12:37:51

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Yes, but I can't think of a better way to attract attention to the whole remote
viewing/psi phenomenom. You give people the kind of proof where you put your
money where your mouth is, and they tend to pay attention.

> I can assure you those who think they can
> beat the stock market, find the Lost Dutchman or whip up on the craps table
> are not the type of people who will listen to reason anyhow..

http://www.remote-viewing.com/


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 RV Targets 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/248)

 12:38:02

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------


Thanks for the imput Greg and I would appreciate any help on this that
you think I could use. The targets will not be judged at this time, this
is solely a pilot phase. Later, the targets will be put through a judging
procedure. I don't want the viewers to be worried about whether they will
be judged at this point. Please email me privately at
Catalyst@... with any suggestions, thank you.

Kind regards
Angela


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Sony psi research closed down 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/249)

 12:38:12

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

I doubt they would've managed to snag a
> copy of the Tech. Transfer Protocols from the farsight site before
they
> were removed, as I have.. Hehe.. I wanna see if, at some point I can
> scrape together the resources to start a company based on the
> application of these protocols.. Anyone interested, drop me a line..
>
> -Tao_Sk8r

As the Operations Director of just such a recovery firm, I dare say
this work is difficult enough without using ANYTHING related to
Courtney Brown as a basis for operations. Do yourself an enormous
favor and get some training from Lyn Buchanan or Paul Smith (both
top-flite CRV instructors)... unless you are trying to gather intel on
the Hale-Bopp Companion.

Good Luck,
Greg


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/250)

 12:38:55

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

In a message dated 7/9/98 8:09:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williamrichard@... writes:

<< Ever try it? >>
Yes...and I did not better than if I took straight gambles at the numbers...RV
is not a money making proposition...though some swear they have made money in
the stock market...and Lyn even claims to have made money in the lotteries...I
do not believe it had anything to do with pre-cognitive abilities for a lot of
reasons..I have stated them before and most people have selected hearing when
I tell them why it does not work so I am no longer going to flog this horse
either...check out the bankbooks of the old pros...no different than the rest
of middle class America...hmmmm....doesn't that tell you something other than
we were all incredibly stupid or incredibly ethical...(neither was the
case...).but don't believe me...State lotteries love to try to prove it to you
as do the casinos...
Gene...


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/251)

 12:39:05

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<< However,
we soon got bored with the game and haven't played for a long time. The
Decline Effect kicked in!

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith
Inner Vision >>
You came away with what most 10$ bettors come away with...a few petty wins and
a few petty losses...I would remnd many of you that tore my head off on the
issue of Remote Influencing that if you really believe you have the Vulcan
Mind Meld capability...put your quarters into the slots and "influence" the
simple and inorganic metal and springs of the machine which so many of you say
you can do...ought to be sure winners...
Gene..


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/252)

 12:40:00

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

.but don't believe me...State lotteries love to try to prove it to you
> as do the casinos...
> Gene...

Gene, you've been the lone stick-in-the-mud voice of reality, with a
little help from Angela, and I gotta get your back on this one.

Gene's not just being a party pooper, guys, he's tellin' ya straight.
He's been there. Even Lyn will tell you CRV doesn't work on numbers.
Supposedly, ARV (associative) will, but I can't get it to work for me,
and I'm a damned good CRV'er. I can even work the CRV protocols from
an altered state, but the numbers and red/black thing just shreds the
learning curve.

I know it seems like it should work, but it doesn't. After a steady
diet of lousy results, your subconscious will run screaming from the
project.

Greg



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/253)

 12:40:10

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

In a message dated 7/9/98 9:54:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
heimdallassociates@... writes:

<<
Gene, you've been the lone stick-in-the-mud voice of reality, with a
little help from Angela, and I gotta get your back on this one.
>>
So far tonight I have read at least three or four people who are absolutely
certain that the future of RV is finding oil and mineral deposits or breaking
the bank at Vegas...I have never taken any money for RV and never
will...personal choice but I do know that I have never seen any of the world
class viewers with whom I have dealt make any money at RV except by sheer
sweat of the brow...hard work..not RV..just hard work such as teaching RV or
working with RV or altered state institutions like the Monroe Institutes..no
free lunches out there...but Gregg..I can assure you those who think they can
beat the stock market, find the Lost Dutchman or whip up on the craps table
are not the type of people who will listen to reason anyhow...Thanxs for the
support anyhow...how have you been...?
Gene..


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Real World 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/256)

 12:40:22

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hi all;
Liam here. We live in a real world. A world where things are as they are
and not as we think or wish they would be. In the real world the biggest
bar to RV is a giggle (or as we called it at the project, "the giggle
factor.") No elected official can be seen as to supportive of psi, lest it
become common knowledge, and the voters begin to giggle. Old Senator Smith
is talking to angels, won't vote for him again. No CEO can invest millions
of his company's dollars on what a psychic says, or he will not be CEO very
long. I get the feeling, that the dedicated researchers in academia are
considered a "little odd" by their peers in other branches.I do not believe
that the military or the intelligence community will dive back into RV (even
though it has been proven to them to be effective and resource efficient)
because the public does not want to see it's tax monies being wasted on
psychic nonsense. What I do find strange is when we, who know that RV
works, become indigent and outraged, when businessmen, elected officials,
and
researchers choose to live in the real world. Yes the truth is out there,
and we should look for it. We being the people in this group. But lets not
expect the people who have chosen to live in the "real world" to share our
views. All the scientific studies, all the intelligence coups, cannot
withstand one good loud belly laugh. I did not know I had become so
cynical.

slainte
May the force be with you
Liam


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/257)

 12:40:38

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>I know it seems like it should work, but it doesn't. After a steady
>diet of lousy results, your subconscious will run screaming from the
>project.
>
>Greg


Hi all; Liam here. I have to go along with Greg and Gene on this one.
Maybe it is because making money is not all that important. Maybe it is
because RV is magic and a gift. Using it to make "easy money" seems a waste
of the gift and a perversion of the magic. Even ARV has not proved to be
terribly effective from the Targ silver futures to the many attempts to
break the bank at Vegas or win the Literary. There seems to be one
exception. Pat Price evidently made money by RVing. Unfortunately he
allegedly died before he had a chance to enjoy most of it.

I would like to see RV used to make the world a better place. If that is
not possible, then I would like to use RV to make me a better person. I do
not think winning a few million and retiring would make me a better person.
Enjoying the magic and recognizing there may be a spiritual aspect to RV
seems more important to me than taking early retirement, buying a big
house, and making Guinness a richer man

slainte
May the force be with you
Liam



stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  Online Psi Experiments 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/258)

 12:40:53

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>fired. On the other hand a simple wide open for anyone to view test on
>the web, (actually better on a completely public site) has alot to offer
>if done in a manner that can't be questioned. The experiements and
>stats. are relatively simple, its the fool proof open design that can't
>be rigged that would finally impress.

Hi Bill,

My own intentions re: the 'binary' experiment, I am hoping will fill
the criteria you're talking about here. One of the big frustrations
I've had with psi research is that it is very difficult to get a look
at the raw data. I made some enquiries but was told that it is
rare for even labs to share data with other labs.

So for about a month now I've been planning a possible series of online
psi experiments. I want to use the strictest, most disciplined
scientific protocols and procedures in this experiment - I want to
avoid an amateurish experiment and I'm very conscious of some of
the comments that have been made on the list - I'd like the only
difference between my own attempts at an online psi experiment
(whatever experiment I eventually choose) and the same one done in a
laboratory setting being - the setting, and the higher degree of openness
and accountability. I'd want it to be, literally, fool-proof - including strong
peer-review - namely the Star Gate list and/or the participants
in the experiment. If the innerds of the experiment are in
any way suspect, I would want people to shout up, but I'd hope they'd
be supportive of the general aim of the experiment and everyone would
"play fair."

I feel there are a lot of potential benefits to performing such a series
of open, online psi experiments.

Re: "its the fool proof open design that can't
be rigged that would finally impress.", I have to say I agree completely
with this and it's part of the plan behind the experiment. I believe openness
in science is paramount to it's being verifiable without the need to repeat
experiments or set up your own lab (which most people would not have the
resources and/or volunteers etc, online or off.) If everything is on the table,
from start to finish, and the experiment is sound in every conceivable way,
they'd seem to be very little for the skeptics to gripe about.

An open experiment offers many possibilities that previously couldn't
be explored. Apart from the chance to view everything, through from
initial planning (which, if I do go ahead with, could include the discussions
that have gone on in the Star Gate list already), through performing trials,
analysis, summaries and conclusions.. with every single shred of data
inbetween available for full public (peer) review, it also offers the public
the chance to *participate* fully in the experiment, as a 'peer-reviewer',
as a participating viewer/psychic, or any other role they care to take.

Obviously the first stage in any such experiment would be to obtain
every single possible shred of scientific data on the setting up and
administrating of this type of experiment, and that's what I'm
currently involved with.

I'm also off to see if I can obtain a copy of the recommended
'Conscious Universe' here in the UK, otherwise I'll have to get it from
the US. (Time for me to go rummaging in those trouser pockets for
change.. :)

Cheers,
Steve.



stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  Target the accumulator!! 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/259)

 12:41:04

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Gene said
>put your quarters into the slots and "influence" the
>simple and inorganic metal and springs of the machine which so many of you
say
>you can do...ought to be sure winners...

Mary quietly suggests you _could_ Target the accumulator!!!

Having been fruit machine designers from the days of the Old Jennings, to
the latest computerised gizmos, I can give you some insight to the slot
machines.

The moment you put your coin in the slot and trip the microswitch, the
machine already knows the outcome of the game. The odds are run by the
computer and accumulator, the % payout is set at about 72% over £10,000
put in, in the UK. The payout cannot legally go lower than that, and in
club machines it has to say % on the glass.

Its all down to the accumulator. Every coin that goes in is registered as
coins in, and everything that is paid out is also registered. So, if a lot
has gone in, and not much out, then the liklihood of winning gets much
better. Simillarly, if a lot has gone out, then it has to rebalance, by
reducing the win factor. This is usually done by the nudge or hold
availability, through the accumulator.

Then there is the skill factor, where you compete against the machine to
win, based around the gamble or take scenario. HINT. The music is attached
to the sequencer. Hit the stop buttons at the highest note, or the last
note in the sequence. You can react faster by sound, than watching the
sequence of lights. The odds at the first shot are 50-50. Then 60-40,
70-30, etc. The parameters are set up by the machine. The machine cannot go
broke. If the machine hasn't paid out much, then the chance of winning is
much higher, but still against you.

Theoretically, the odds should be equal. In practice it isn't. Its worked
it out. The trick comes in the tickle. The machine keeps chucking in little
wins to keep you going, and it can and will set up holds or nudges when it
has worked out you are down to your last coin, or so. Holds may be
successful. Nudges are set up and predetermined as to how many, and where.
It also makes this assessment on the style of play. The only way to alter
things is by introducing a level of chaos to the programme and the
accumulator. Playing stupidly, nudging daftly, holding obvious losing
lines. Then if you're really lucky, win and walk away.

If after all this, you have sat and watched it, targetted the accumulator,
and it hasn't paid out for ages, and it feels right, the advice is still
never put in more than the highest win you can take out. Or better still,
don't play the things at all.




In Friendship and Light. MaryD


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/260)

 12:41:15

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Ah yes but Paul...these same people who claim to be able to influence such
>things should have no problem making the grand leap to influencing as simple
>as computer programs since they are in reality only a binary code...yes/no
>type influence shoudlbe a piece of cake...
>Gene..

Aloha Gene, I think one would have to examine the methodology of what
influences machines. Surely thought has little if any effect on a simple
machine. The state of the machine under power in operation would only be
affected by certain things. Electromagnetic fields would be the primary
tool to cause a machine to burp so to speak, or a surge or drop in power. I
do not think that it is impossible to train someone to be able to disturb
the operation of a machine. Some people cannot wear a watch, I cannot wear
a digital watch for long before it comes to a stop. It's a sad thing I was
forced to buy an analog Rolex :). So I would say that the real problem
would actually be the intelligent manipulation of a machine that is really
the problem.
Aloha ... Glenn



stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  Peer Review 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/261)

 12:41:25

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hi Michael,

>Actually the peer review process *works* because the article is evaluated
>by the review panel for the research journal. This review panel consists
>of other researchers working in the field, and these are the "peers"
>referred to by the term "peer review." It a review of the experimental
>design chosen, analysis methods, and the logic behind the conclusions
>drawn. It is not an observation of the experiment or inspection of the data.

I think you've hit upon the very point I was trying hard to make. As the
kind of person who likes to dodge words, talk and testimonials, and immerse
myself fully in solid data and facts, I'm much more concerned about the
parameters of the experiments, the procedures, the raw data, etc, then I
am about the people involved. Scientific research, to me, is not about
personalities and opinions, but procedures, methods, experiments, raw
data, replicability and peer-review, etc. People just happen to be there
to see that these processes are in motion (I'm not aware of scientific
research that was performed without at least one human involved, but
I'd be extremely interested to hear if there is ;)

I try very hard to separate personalities from the information,
and focus solely on the information - information I have some means by
which to verify for myself. Testimonies are only good, IMO, as supportive
evidence. I do not use personal credibility to establish the credibility of
information they give - I prefer to see solid experiments, solid data,
and instructions on how I can repeat those experiments should I wish to,
plus I'd like to see those curious enough encouraged to set up their
very own experiments, with the same parameters etc, in order to
verify/validate/replicate the findings of the originating lab, etc. You
could say that when it comes to science, I'm pretty distrusting and
skeptical of human beings. And that might be true  But I think
science works better, as an objective form of analysis, when the
personal, emotional, element is removed from it.

For a long time I have been hoping to be able to obtain/see full
data published on these types of lab psu experiments so that the entire
process, from start to finish, can be reviewed and disected, etc.

Because I understand it may be impractical or extremely difficult
for laboratories to implement this kind of system, I decided
to propose an online psi experiment, which I hope to back with
the same rigorous scientific controls/protocols etc as the original
experiments in the laboratories, in order to attempt to replicate
the findings of the labs. The only difference being the *entire
process* is open to peer-review by *the entire public*, and the
entire public is also free to contribute and participate throughout
each and every stage of the experiment. The only changes I'd
make to be the experiment would be anything that would need to
be modified in order for the experiment to work 'online'.

I feel that there are tremendous opportunities in performing such
an experiment, if properly approached and applied.

Right now, I'm in the process of researching the innerds of a
lab psi experiment similar to the types I've been proposing. It's
lucky we have a psi lab here in the UK - it might prove useful! 

Once I feel I have the grasp of what's needed to do the experiment,
to make it identical to a lab experiment (minus the fact it's open and
public, and that it's being done on the Internet and not a lab room),
I'll lay down some proposals here, and hopefully, if there aren't
any objections to it, we can get started..

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/262)

 12:41:37

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>I would like to see RV used to make the world a better place. If that is
>not possible, then I would like to use RV to make me a better person.
>
>slainte
>May the force be with you
>Liam

Hi Liam,

Jerry here. I think you put it very eloquently - RV (or any other psychic
ability) has a purpose far beyond money. If you can make money with it -
that's great, more power to you. It's just that I feel that I'm subverting
the gift when I do that.

Jerry


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/263)

 12:41:59

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Hi all; Liam here. I have to go along with Greg and Gene on this one.
>Maybe it is because making money is not all that important. Maybe it is
>because RV is magic and a gift. Using it to make "easy money" seems a waste
>of the gift and a perversion of the magic. Even ARV has not proved to be
>terribly effective from the Targ silver futures to the many attempts to
>break the bank at Vegas or win the Literary. There seems to be one
>exception. Pat Price evidently made money by RVing. Unfortunately he
>allegedly died before he had a chance to enjoy most of it.

Another example is Hal Puthoff's story about raising funds for a private
school by training members of the Board of Directors in ARV. Their results
were used to determine investments in the commodities market. The
experiment was successful in raising 50K, if I remember correctly. I heard
the story from Hal last year.

Best regards,
Michael


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/265)

 12:42:08

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Mind Meld capability...put your quarters into the slots and "influence" the
>simple and inorganic metal and springs of the machine which so many of you
say
>you can do...ought to be sure winners...

Ah, Gene--but many of them are electronic these days! ;-)

Paul



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Sony psi research closed down 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/270)

 12:42:24

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Yep.. It is called PR.....

electrix

Bill Pendergrass wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> It seems incredible to me that the conclusion was that no practicale
> applications were possible. Is this another cover up denouncing psi so
> that the practical applications go underground.


stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  The 'Gift' 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/271)

 12:42:32

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Jerry here. I think you put it very eloquently - RV (or any other psychic
>ability) has a purpose far beyond money. If you can make money with it -
>that's great, more power to you. It's just that I feel that I'm subverting
>the gift when I do that.

Hi Jerry, welcome to the list!

I've got to add.. if I ever develop workable psi skills (and I'm not having
much luck at it yet), I'd like to use this ability to help others and try to
make this world a better place in whatever small way I could. I have to
join this growing choir who've been saying so far that such an ability should
not be used for selfish ends.. I'd consider psi a gift too, and I wouldn't
want to abuse such a precious gift by using it purely for my own self-
gain.. it seems such a shallow use of such a potentially valuable tool.

Best regards,
Steve.


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/272)

 12:42:45

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Another example is Hal Puthoff's story about raising funds for a private
>school by training members of the Board of Directors in ARV. Their results
>were used to determine investments in the commodities market. The
>experiment was successful in raising 50K, if I remember correctly. I heard
>the story from Hal last year.
>
>Best regards,
>Michael

Hi Michael;
You are right. Hal also told me the story. However I would like to point
out that
the RVing was done for an altruistic purpose. People were not doing the
RVing to make
themselves rich. As I said I believe there is a spiritual side to RV. I
think selfish motives and
materialism tend to degrade results. But then I believe in Leprechauns,
fairies, ghouls and ghosts.
slainte
May the force be with you
Liam


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Real World 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/273)

 12:43:08

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Yes...it is an oppressive and resistant world. Full of stress and
inhibition...enough to dampened the PSI factor, but not enough to prevent it
from popping out once in a while in our being. And certainly, not enough
oppression to prevent the few and undaunted from exercising our
birth-right...against the Emperor.

electrix

Liam wrote:

> Hi all;
> Liam here. We live in a real world. A world where things are as they are
> and not as we think or wish they would be. In the real world the biggest


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Real World 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/274)

 12:43:27

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<< I did not know I had become so
cynical.
>>
Liam...It comes with old age...your cynicism is a forerunner to being accused
of arrogance and combattiveness...you know...acting like a stupid
Irishman...heck it almost got me tossed off Steve's net so now I have become a
kinder and sweeter Gene...so be very careful about your cynicism...keep it in
check since there are those on this system..great academics and sholars who
see not "giggle" factors in anything and lead very serious and refined
lifestyles which have long ago failed to see humor in the most unlikely places
and see only the seriousness of all they do...I have learned to survive with
them and can now use such terms as "Peer Review", quantum mechanics,
replication of details, statistical analysis without so much as one guffaw...I
know have my forehead permanently squinched up into a frown as I contemplate
the importance of the difference between 50/50 chance and 58.3 % results and
the impact this 8.3% could have on the world at large....
PS...Nice to see another Mick on the net...
Gene..


stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  Psi and money 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/275)

 12:43:42

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

[stargate] Psi and money

Hi, gang. Thought I'd change the subject line, since we'd strayed from
"Red and black cards" quite a ways.

At 03:22 PM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Jerry here. I think you put it very eloquently - RV (or any other psychic
>ability) has a purpose far beyond money. If you can make money with it -
>that's great, more power to you. It's just that I feel that I'm subverting
>the gift when I do that.

For the time being, I'm agnostic about whether one can make money by
directly using RV or other psi techniques for making money in games of
chance. however, the whole issue of money and psi is a sticky one. There
are those who think that it's okay to make money by charging money for
training or services (I'm obviously squarely in that camp! ;-), there are
those that think that making money with it at all is wrong, and there are
others who only think that making money by using psi in gambling games is
wrong.

But there is a further variable that is often forgotten--the REASON one
wants to make money in the first place. I suspect that if one has worthy
goals for the money, one may well be successful in many pursuits involving
psi and money. If one wants money for selfish reasons, it's often
self-defeating. People who are selfish seem to have more of a difficult
time being open enough to psi to accomplish such goals. In a sense, the
New Testament may apply here--you have to "lose" yourself to "find"
yourself. Ironically the end result is this: the altruists don't care
about making money from psi, so don't make any. The selfish ones defeat
themselves in trying to make money from psi, and so don't make any either!
Kind of funny, if you ask me. Interestingly, Hal's ARV project was indeed
very successful (but involved a huge amount of work)--but it was a
worthwhile project--making money for a Waldorf School.

Enjoy!
Paul



stargate : Message: [stargate] 
  Psi Testing 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/276)

 12:43:54

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR),
( http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ ) has been conducting many experiments
on the relationship of Psi mediated events.
A bit more esoteric than card selection is Mind Song
Technologies Shifter Cell(tm), (
http://www.pearinc.com/products/dev.html ), this electronic apparatus
reacts to a person's random deviation above or below chance. Ostensibly,
this device incorporates a random event generator that produces an
viable output which is proportional to the mind's conscious attempts to
"shift" the signal beyond or below chance expectations.

On the interactive software side, the Shape Changer (r),
( http://www.pearinc.com/products/shch.html ) produces two overlapping
graphic images which, by user's influence, biases the pixel display to
uncover the user's selected graphic image.

There are several web sites that offer online Psi testing:

Electronic Psi Test ----- http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e8926506/epsi.htm
Psi Explorer ----- http://www.psiexplorer.com/indexnm.htm
Enchanted Mind -----http://enchantedmind.com/remote/remote.htm




stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Real World 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/277)

 12:44:08

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Gene--

At 08:34 PM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote:

>check since there are those on this system..great academics and sholars who
>see not "giggle" factors in anything and lead very serious and refined
>lifestyles which have long ago failed to see humor in the most unlikely
places
>and see only the seriousness of all they do...

Well, Gene--it's about time you started to see things my way! ;-)

I have learned to survive with
>them and can now use such terms as "Peer Review", quantum mechanics,
>replication of details, statistical analysis without so much as one guffaw...

Okay, but now let's see you do it closed-book!

>know have my forehead permanently squinched up into a frown as I contemplate
>the importance of the difference between 50/50 chance and 58.3 % results and
>the impact this 8.3% could have on the world at large....

Come, come. That frown originated years ago and has something to do with
waylaying Orangemen...

Enjoy,
Paul



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Real World 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/278)

 12:44:23

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<<
Come, come. That frown originated years ago and has something to do with
waylaying Orangemen...

Enjoy,
Paul
>>
Oh sure...your a fine one to look at my version of seriousness...a Doctoral
Candidate...yeh yeh..lots of humor in your life lately I'll bet...hahahah
Gene....


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/279)

 12:44:32

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Dear Steve and List,
I thought to take the red-black idea into a roulette wheel ....
literally gambling to see if I had any ability to see if I could
"guess" black or red colors. I will honestly report I lost $23.
 However....there were patterns...and though it isn't cards....
and though I am untrained again, I sure enjoyed "holding my own" on a
$70 bet for two hours while others around me lost hundreds. I learned
however that my idea of black retaining 'heat' had no merit at all.
Heat had nothing to do with why I was doing well or not.
I did see patterns on a roulette wheel, at least on the one we
watched...this time the pattern was red for the most part. So blows
my idea that black wins more on a roulette wheel. 
Was it movement of the wheel, different momentum of spin ( two
different dealers spin at different rates of speed?) and general
physics of the wheel that enabled me to watch the patterns steadily
for two hours without a major financial loss? I have no idea to be
honest. Remember that I am reporting a loss on a $70 investment
after two hours.....is TIME a factor we should account for in our RV
online experiment for red/ black cards?
For the sake of reporting, I would say this was a "failure" as I was
unable to get ahead of the odds and win, say hundreds, based on mere
black and red appearing.
Compared to cards, is there a difference?
I am willing to go out there again and try it of course.
Feedback? Thanks,
Best to all, Laura


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Psi and money 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/280)

 12:44:46

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

HI Paul,
It would seem that the issue of making money from RV or PSI related activities
brings out the same emotions that come up when people charge for healing gifts.

People are really schizophrenic when it comes to money issues, they want you to
use your "God given gifts" to help them for free on demand, which if you are
any good would take 24/7, but have severe judgments if you charge for your
time. It's funny but the landlord and utility company do not understand this
arrangement. It is even funnier that these same people will spend their
precious moneys on a variety of less than honorable or frivolous goods and
services without hesitation.

Your explanation goes right to the heart of the issue. Which is the character
of the practitioner, as demonstrated by how they direct their resources. But
one step further, attempts of people to hold others to standards higher than
those they are willing to live up to, in an attempt to shame these others into
giving free services is pure and simple manipulation.

In a free market economy, if you value a service you pay for that service. If
the service is honestly represented and delivered, that is the end of the
story. The idea that one group should try to shame another to "share their God
given talents" for free is ludicrous. The idea that we as practitioners would
feel wrong for asking fair exchange of our services, demonstrates an illogical
belief system. The idea that "God" would frown on the use of healing or PSI
gifts, is also illogical, are not our artistic, athletic, or intellectual gifts
also "God given". The use of our gifts in integrity is all "God" demands.

Unlike a retail store I have modified my fees or even given free services for
those in need. I have also found that in most cases people only value what
they pay for, and if there is not some sort of exchange for services it is like
casting your pearls. I have worked on people who experienced major relief of
pain and debilitating symptoms but felt that some how, I , a stranger, owed
them this for free to make up for a life where they felt taken advantage of by
others... bizarre.

Over the years I have come to see these emotional positions taken by people to
be more a symptom of their own journey than an indication of some intellectual
proof of the morality of fair exchange for the use of ones "God" given gifts.
As innately spiritual beings we are all endowed with many gifts, singling out
some of them as inappropriate to value, as demonstrated by the exchange of
currency, is much more immoral than the implied argument.

Aloha Yaana


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/281)

 12:44:56

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hi all; Liam here. Recently there has been some discussion of RV ethics
(No Steve, I am not going to open that can of worms, at this time). At Ft
Meade, we informed everyone, before they began training, of the potential
dangers of RV. This is a requirement of the Department of Defense (DOD)
Human Use Regulation and also the US Codes. More important it is the
ethical thing to do. A person has the right to know the risks associated
with any undertaking. Before I except any student for training I make sure
they understand the following:

I can promise you that learning RV will change you. Your world view will
change. Your priorities will change, and many things about you will change.
These changes will begin shortly after you begin training. What I cannot
promise you is that these changes will be for the better. I believe that
most RVers I know have been changed for what I beleive to be the better.
There are those however, whom I consider to not only be different people
than
they were, but to have changed for the worst. Priorities will change. The
ability
to go anyplace in the world or out of it takes a lot of the urgency out of
getting your
monthly report on telephone usage in on time. This is fine if your boss is
also on RVer.
If he isn't, he may not understand your lack of acknowledgement of the
importance
of routine paperwork. Learning RV will make you humbler or more egotistical.
I cannot predict
before you begin the thee training which one you will become. You will
become more or less sensitive. You will become more or less intuitive.
You may experience short term memory loss. Did I say that earlier? I forget
if my memory loss is from RV, old age, or from pouring oceans of Guinness,
Tullmore Dew, and Paddy's over my declining number of brain cells for an
extended period of time. You will come to realize that the world is
different
than you thought it was. The rules of physics do not really apply. I
believe
your spiritual outlook may change. I cannot say if that is good or bad. If
you
have a history of mental illness RV is probably not for you.

What I look for in an RV student is a sound spiritual (not the same as
religious)
foundation, mental stability, a sense of humor, and humility. Gene and I,
being,
Irish, come by our humility naturally. In fact I have achieved perfect
humility. I am probably the most humble person in the world. A fact I am
very proud of .

Having done, what I consider to be, my ethical duty to warn everyone, I will
now climb off my soap box.

slainte
May the force be with you.
Liam




stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning/ memory loss? 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/282)

 12:45:44

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Liam,
I am interested in a comment you made in your WARNING post which mentioned
short term memory loss? I say this because I feel my short term memory
capabilities have decreased since serious training in RV. Its almost as if
something has to be compramised in order for there to be facility for Rv.
Do you have any info on this you can share?

All the best...

Darryl

We came...
We saw...
We wrote a session summery...


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning/ memory loss? 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/283)

 12:46:00

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

> I am interested in a comment you made in your WARNING post which mentioned
>short term memory loss? I say this because I feel my short term memory
>capabilities have decreased since serious training in RV. Its almost as if
>something has to be compramised in order for there to be facility for Rv.
>Do you have any info on this you can share?

I'd be interested in knowing too. However, it may well be that some
could become so absorbed in the practice of rv that they run the risk of
being able (wanting) to concentrate much on the more uninteresting (but
sometimes necessary) aspects of mundane life.

I've always (been told) I have a lousy memory. For example, someone
could be speaking to me, I'd 'drift off' thinking about something else,
or something connected, and then anxious to catch up I'd ask a
question.. the answer to which I'd just been told! This has led to me
being labelled 'scatterbrained', and caused comments about my memory all
through my life. It used to worry me that I may be a bit thick, until I
got older, realised what was happening, and could force myself to stay
with the flow (doesn't mean I'm *not* thick though I guess :-). This,
and the fact that I fail to 'file away' that which doesn't catch my
interest much has caused me untold embarrassment.

Thank Goodness I have a job I find interesting.......

Hopefully it's just that. I'd hate to lose what little I've got!


--
Regards,
Glyn


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Science vs. Scientism 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/284)

 12:46:12

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

News bit:
Apparently the UT has concluded their 'target' study with mostly N/A.
The Precog target site at www.psiresearch.org/ (Dean Radin's UNLV) is also
down or having severe difficultiies.
Bevy J


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning/ memory loss? 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/285)

 12:46:28

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

> I am interested in a comment you made in your WARNING post which mentioned
>short term memory loss? I say this because I feel my short term memory
>capabilities have decreased since serious training in RV. Its almost as if
>something has to be compramised in order for there to be facility for Rv.
>Do you have any info on this you can share?
>
>All the best...
>
>Darryl


Hi Darryl;
I posted something similar on PJ's web and got back several replies. Some
of
them sited scientific studies documenting short term memory loss associated
with certain brain activities. I would forward them to you but I have had a
computer crash
and they were all deleted. Ingo insisted when we were going through
training that we take vitamin B.
This seems to help. The problem is I keep forgetting to by the vitamins.
When I do buy them I forget to take them. When I do remember to take them,
I forget where I put them. The answer is to buy about five bottles and
stash them all
around the house. Hope this helps.
slainte
May the force be with you
Liam



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Psi and money/personal ethics 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/286)

 12:46:40

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

I must in all honesty agree with much of what Paul says and what Yaana says.

imho the dictionary meaning of 'gift' is something one receives
the meaning of 'reward' is something we are given, not as a gift,
but in return
for something we've done

There has been a 'sticky wicket' surrounding the use of PSI and money which
began, I believe, with Edgar Cayce's experiences. The motives of those who
sought to use his abilities to enrich themselves came to grief. Cayce was a
man of very high morals. We all respect that.

I must, in all honesty, abstract healing from what follows. It is in a
separate category also imho.

If you feel that PSI and/or remote viewing is something you received as a
gift, and did nothing to deserve, then your own natural morality and inner
consciousness should be your own best guide. If you are a greedy person, then
so be it. If you are in need of money for the utility companies, then so be
it.
If you have spent years working hard at something, then it might not be a
'gift' but a reward for effort expended unless you want to specify that it
is a gift that everyone without exception gets, and that without any hard work
or effort, some have been able to exercise it.
That's one position.

If you have spent years working hard at learning tennis, should you turn down
any monetary return for the skill you worked so long and hard to attain?
If you have spent years working hard at learning to write, or to paint, or
play music, should you turn away payment for your learned skills?

Since most of us in this field for several decades are agreed that everyone
HAS the ability to develop PSI, and to use it, then its possession could
possibly still be considered a gift, but again; then it is a gift we ALL get.
We can use it or not, as we choose.

I do not believe, as a point of argument, that there is, or should be, any
prohibition (or blame) associated with the use of PSI/RV for making money.
The purpose of making the money should be what is under judgement, if
anything. I also do not believe that anyone who is using the abilities to
make an honest living should be chastised or made to feel that they are guilty
of some indiscretion. Along the same lines, it is my opinion that adding the
words "God-given" to the mix only confuses the issue further.
If we are agreed that we have a Creator and that all our talents come from
this Creator, then we are back to square one.

If one has independent means, or a great job or a fine income, or a nice
pension, and wants to use PSI/RV as a sort of 'armchair explorer'
technique...then again, so be it.
If one lacks the above, then we are in a different category with a different
standard.
It then becomes not a matter of altruism, but of hard reality and monthly
bills.

The question then becomes, should those who teach these learned skills, or
write about these skills, or who use these skills be subjected to different
standards? If so, then why? It would seem to be a personal choice, or
a necessity, and nothing for which to be blamed, either way.
Although I have chosen to be a writer and a 'field researcher' and not to
become a 'reader' (whatever that is construed to be) myself, as I do not
feel that path is right for me; there are others who have done so to pay
bills, to put a child through College, or just to live. Should they then be
held to some higher standard?

If we are Christians we have been prohibited from judging others. If we are
of some other religious persuasion, the teachings are the same.
Bevy J

http:www.slipstrym.com/uspsisquad/


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Psi and money/personal ethics 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/287)

 12:47:01

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Re: [stargate] Psi and money/personal ethics

>I do not believe, as a point of argument, that there is, or should be, any
>prohibition (or blame) associated with the use of PSI/RV for making money.

Hello,

When I made my post I had no idea that I was joining what was going to become
a full debate on the topic; I was simply offering my own opinion and was hoping
to leave it at that.

I believe people should use the technique as they see fit. I'm not qualified
to rule on people's use of the technique in their own circumstances; they
and only they can judge whether they feel their use of the technique is
justified, etc.

My comments were personal and limited solely to me. If I develop psi skills,
I would like to use them to help others and for healing. I in no way suggested
others had to agree with this and I respect other people's opinions on this
topic, and they are welcome to make as much money directly or indirectly
from the skill as they like. Afterall, what can I do about it, even if I
disagree
with them?

If people want to use psi abilities to enrich themselves, so be it. I will not
attempt to stop them (nor could I should I wish it). I, however, would hope
I'd use the ability to help others and not just myself. But, again, that is
my personal opinion. Everyone has opinions, and they're welcoem to
them. I do not believe I am qualified to provide answers to *other* people's
moral issues. That's their concern, and depends on their moral and
emotional beliefs.

I would just like to point out that my small contribution was never intended to
be taken quite so literally or disected as advice for others to follow. If I
had
known that this topic would turn into a full-fledged discussion/debate, I would
certainly not have offered my few philosophical thoughts on the subject,
because I do not feel I am qualified to comment on other people's philosophical
or moral beliefs.

Best regards,
Steve.



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Psi and money/personal ethics 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/288)

 12:47:45

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Steve--

At 02:05 PM 7/11/98 +-100, you wrote:

>When I made my post I had no idea that I was joining what was going to become
>a full debate on the topic; I was simply offering my own opinion and was
hoping
>to leave it at that.

Don't panic! ;-) I myself had forgotten that the psi/money discussion had
even begun with you. Don't apologize for starting it. Discussion groups
are for bringing up relevant issues of common interest, and giving everyone
a chance to speak his/her mind (in a civilized manner, of course!). I
don't think any of us thought that you were trying to define anyone's
behavior for them. In any case, the psi vs. money issue is an important
ancillary issue to psi in general, so I'm glad you brought it up.

Enjoy!
Paul


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Peer Review 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/289)

 12:48:03

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

> Because I understand it may be impractical or extremely difficult
> for laboratories to implement this kind of system, I decided
> to propose an online psi experiment, which I hope to back with
> the same rigorous scientific controls/protocols etc as the original
> experiments in the laboratories, in order to attempt to replicate
> the findings of the labs. The only difference being the *entire
> process* is open to peer-review by *the entire public*, and the
> entire public is also free to contribute and participate throughout
> each and every stage of the experiment. The only changes I'd
> make to be the experiment would be anything that would need to
> be modified in order for the experiment to work 'online'.
Steve, and anybody else with a scientific background, I would be happy to
assist you in any way I can. I worked at the PEAR Lab from 1987 through
1992 as research assistant, as well as participating in other psi lab
research (PK and RV). I have on loan from PEAR a Portable true REG,
software etc. which I have been using for my Ph.D. Dissertation Research.
I also have some new software to undertake Field Consciousness Research
(which I plan to implement after I finish writing my Dissertation,
sometime nearer the end of this year.)So, I am conversant with psi
collection data, analysis, presentation etc. So, any help I can give in
these matters please email me privately. I would also be happy to help
you set up a target pool of potential targets ie Outbounder or
Coordinate. Let me know.

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith
The Inner Vision Research Institute


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Chance Expectations 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/290)

 12:48:13

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

I know we are moving away from the Red and Black thread but living in Las
Vegas I hear some interesting things about the casinos. It seems that if
someone at a routlette table is winning big, the pit boss will change
dealers, putting in someone who can "throw the numbers". The wife of one
of my students (she was a routlette dealer) became so skilled at throwing
the ball onto the wheel that she could pretty much choose which number
the ball would fall on. I have heard this happens at the Black Jack table
too.

Regarding whether red or black comes up more often or not, the casinos
have the tables and machines geared to giving them back a healthy profit.
Sure, some people win, and sometimes there are big winners, but there are
more than enough losers to cover the losses.

However, wherever there is a random process at work there is also the
possibility that human consciousness can intervene and affect the
outcome. PEAR has demonstrated this over more than a decade of
laboratory studies at a reputable university.

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith

MS LAURA J FALLON wrote:
So blows my idea that black wins more on a roulette wheel. 
> Was it movement of the wheel,



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 tapes 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/291)

 12:48:52

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Hi John, Inner Vision does not distribute or sell, Ed Dames tapes or any
other PsiTech materials or materials from any other RV group. However,
when I was in New Zealand in June, the organization there taped a 5-day
ER course that I conducted. These tapes are being professionaly edited
and will be available for about $75.00 as a 3-tape set in 1998. Please be
warned that these tapes WILL NOT teach you ERV, they are not intended to
be a teaching tool, just to show the various techniques, methods and
protocols that are taught in an ERV course and the kinds of results you
can expect.

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith

John Krimes wrote:
I wanted to get a copy of Daves
> PK tape, I looked for it on your news letter archives where I remember
> seeing it before but didn't find it this time. Can you tell me if its
> still avaliable and the cost? Do you take credit cards?


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning/ memory loss? 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/292)

 12:49:02

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Liam,

do you still know which vitamine B supplements you took? Or have you
forgotten that too ? ;-)

All the best

Frank V


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning/ memory loss? 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/293)

 12:49:18

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Liam,
>
>do you still know which vitamine B supplements you took? Or have you
>forgotten that too ? ;-)
>
>All the best
>
>Frank V
>
Hi Frank;
What was your question again. Oh yeah. type of vitamin B did Ingo have us
take.
You are right I did forget. I think it was either B1 or B2. I just take
them all
to be sure. Maybe Paul will recall more on this. Of course Paul is not in
much better shape
memory wise then I am. He has already forgot what a great singer I was/am.

slainte
May the force be with you
Liam



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Sony psi research closed down 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/294)

 12:49:30

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>> I doubt they would've managed to snag a copy of the Tech. Transfer
>> Protocols from the farsight site before they were removed, as I >>
have.. Hehe.. I wanna see if, at some point I can scrape together >>
the resources to start a company based on the application of these >>
protocols.. Anyone interested, drop me a line..
>>
>> -Tao_Sk8r

>As the Operations Director of just such a recovery firm, I dare say
>this work is difficult enough without using ANYTHING related to
>Courtney Brown as a basis for operations. Do yourself an enormous
>favor and get some training from Lyn Buchanan or Paul Smith (both
>top-flite CRV instructors)... unless you are trying to gather intel >on
the Hale-Bopp Companion.

>Good Luck,
>Greg

Ok, first, lemme say that I appreciate your response.. I just wanted to
throw that out there for people to chew on, with the result of hopefully
getting some interesting responses, and possibly a dialog.. Second, I
have two points of contention with your derision of Courtney Brown..
While I am well aware of his mistake with the Hale-Bopp companion, and
paying some attention to the developments on his site, and on Pru's has
revealed the reasons behind this 'mistake', with the effext of making it
highly avoidable.. The reason I've put mistake in quotes is that a
website I've recently viewed has revealed that NASA and others have
revealed that there actually was a companion, not to mention the many
inexplicable photos I've garnered from various sources with pictures
from observatories outside of this country, most notably one from Japan
showing highly anomolous detail near HB.. Apologies to all you closed
minded individuals who've already lumped me, at this point, firmly in
thier wing-nut, flake, etc., list, but when I go grab that website, I'll
post the link, and you can view the evidence yourselves.. Oh, and those
protocols, though they are somewhat 'related' to Mr. Brown, were
actually written, and as far as I know, concieved by Prudence Calabrese,
who I hold in the highest regard..

Second, adressing your recommendation about real RV training; I
understand your perspective, and indeed intent to make this sort of
training a part of my agenda, once I have buko bucks to spare for it..
For now, I'll rely on the free resources, thank you much.. I guess the
other reason for my hesitation is that, though it is quite possible I've
missed it, as far as I know there are no tech transfer protocols
included in the training given by your two recommended instructors..

Regards,
Tao_Sk8r


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/295)

 12:49:48

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Gene wrote:
>though some swear they have made money in the stock market...and Lyn
>even claims to have made money in the lotteries...

Not to mention Prudence Calabrese's lottery group, which has done quite
well.. Sorry if I seem to be harping on her, but I assure you, it is
merely circumstantial..

http://www.largeruniverse.com

-Tao_Sk8r



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/296)

 12:49:58

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>>.but don't believe me...State lotteries love to try to prove it to
>>you as do the casinos...
>> Gene...

>Gene's not just being a party pooper, guys, he's tellin' ya straight.
>He's been there. Even Lyn will tell you CRV doesn't work on numbers.

That's all good and well, but I've seen some discussion which has
revealed to me that a great deal of that depends on your preconcieved
notions (Belief Systems) about it.. Don't believe it, and you will
surely be unable to accomplish it.. Test it out though, it's easy
enough, and you don't have to bet to see if you would've won.. I had a
friend who could routinely hit 4-5 numbers in the lottery, to the degree
that he'd make side bets.. He finally hit 12 mil in Cali, and now I
think he's off to wreak havok on other state's lotteries.. By the way,
he did guess a few of the numbers correctly for me once, but at that
point I didn't really believe enough to place my bet.. Incidentally his
method wasn't RV, he would just see numbers on a blackboard, and the
correct ones would light up, and he'd filter it down to the right amount
of digits..

-Tao_Sk8r


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Red and Black Cards 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/297)

 12:50:13

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Hi all; Liam here. I have to go along with Greg and Gene on this
>one. Maybe it is because making money is not all that important.

For those who have incorrectly judged me on my contention that the facts
differ about the possibility of using RV for this, I gotta say, I REALLY
agree with Liam's assertion here.. I am sure it's possible, but I really
don't see it as valuable.. I'd much rather get rich by grabbing patents
from the future, and bringing technology to aid mankind to light before
it's time.. Maybe some see this as little better, but aside from the
opportunity to gain esoteric knowledge, I really don't see a whole bunch
of other practical applications for RV besides this..

>Maybe it is because RV is magic and a gift. Using it to make "easy
>money" seems a waste of the gift and a perversion of the magic.

Yes, yes, and yes.. Very excellently stated Liam.. It is majick, and
shouldn't be trivialized in this way for any other purpose than proving
it's effectiveness..

> Even ARV has not proved to be terribly effective from the Targ
>silver futures to the many attempts to break the bank at Vegas or >win
the Lottery (sp correction). There seems to be one exception. >Pat
Price evidently made money by RVing. Unfortunately he allegedly >died
before he had a chance to enjoy most of it.

Like I've said, it's blocked by BS (Belief systems) and monitor
overlay.. That's my perspective, and I aint budging! Seriously, if you
want proof, go look at Pru's lettory group section! I also gotta take
issue with the parable (of a sort) about Pat Price.. While it has been
shown that winning the lottery will usually ruin the lives of the
winners (who are, maybe by some karmic rule, usually unprepared for
winnings effects), this is not nessecarily always the case, and
certainly our fears in this area have the potential to defy our courage,
and make is surrender at the outset of the battle, as it were..

>I would like to see RV used to make the world a better place. If >that
is not possible, then I would like to use RV to make me a better
>person. I do not think winning a few million and retiring would make
>me a better person. Enjoying the magic and recognizing there may be a
>spiritual aspect to RV seems more important to me than taking early
>retirement, buying a big house, and making Guinness a richer man

>slainte
>May the force be with you
>Liam

Once again, thanks for these points, they bear repeating ad infinitum,
until they become ingrained in the consciousness of everyone who would
view, and all viewers follow these ideas, instead of the material
mundane..

-Tao_Sk8r



stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Real World 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/298)

 12:50:23

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

>Hi all;
>Liam here. We live in a real world. A world where things are as >they
are and not as we think or wish they would be.

Welp, although I agree with you totally in spirit, I think the latest
quantum thoery would tend to disagree with you about what out world is,
in my view 'consensus reality', what ever our conscious and unconscious
minds agree is reality, is..

>No elected official can be seen as to supportive of psi, lest it
>become common knowledge, and the voters begin to giggle. Old Senator
>Smith is talking to angels, won't vote for him again. No CEO can
>invest millions of his company's dollars on what a psychic says, or >he
will not be CEO very long.

I have to disagree here, as well.. History has shown us examples that
disprove this assertion.. Reagan consulted an astrologer (and is still
greatly beloved by a large, albeit ignorant, segment of the population..
Sometimes I wonder what they'd think if they understood the implications
of his executive order crusing much of the power of the FOIA), as does
Hilliary (yah, she's not the pres, but her image reflects on his), as
have a great number of corporate execs, although I have to admit that
the openess with which they do so is somewhat in question.. Many can and
do manage to keep this aspect of thier decision making process hidden
from view, and proceed with it..

>What I do find strange is when we, who know that RV works, become
>indigent and outraged, when businessmen, elected officials, and
>researchers choose to live in the real world.

Well, that is thier perception of the real world, and sure, when we, as
humans know something works, and has unlimited potential, and see it
oppressed, ignored, and in many cases ridiculed, we are outraged! As far
as we can see, those people need to either grow some frickin' balls, or
be a wimp by carrying on with it in secret!

Peace,
-Tao_Sk8r


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning/ memory loss? 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/299)

 12:50:32

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

<< The problem is I keep forgetting to by the vitamins.
When I do buy them I forget to take them. When I do remember to take them,
I forget where I put them. The answer is to buy about five bottles and
stash them all
around the house. Hope this helps. >>
Oh now look what you have started...general panic in the RV community...and
the fact is you probably don't even remember what started all of this...
Gene...
Slainte..


stargate : Message: Re: [stargate] 
 Warning/ memory loss? 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stargate/message/300)

 12:50:46

~~--------ArchivedPostFollows_Yahoo-StarGate_group-000201-000300---------

Liam, et al--

At 09:47 PM 7/11/98 +0200, you wrote:

>What was your question again. Oh yeah. type of vitamin B did Ingo have us
>take.
>You are right I did forget. I think it was either B1 or B2.

I seem to recall it was B1; but I think the solution is to take a
broad-spectrum supplement so you be sure and get what you need--IF, of
course, it really matters. In this case I can't recall that Ingo had
strong evidence as to why he thought it was beneficial (but then again, I
HAVE been neglecting my vitamins). Remember, though that some of the 'B's
are toxic in too large doses (B6 comes to mind, but might be wrong).

>to be sure. Maybe Paul will recall more on this. Of course Paul is not in
>much better shape
>memory wise then I am. He has already forgot what a great singer I was/am.

Not at all, Liam. I remember how well you sang "Far Away," and I hope many
times to keep hearing you sing "Far Away."

Enjoy,
Paul